God's Playing a New Game

God's Playing a New Game

Integral Spirituality, Evolutionary Enlightenment,
and the Future of Religion

Andrew Cohen & Ken Wilber in dialogue

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Re: God's Playing a New Game

Wilber: The myth of the given is one of the book’s primary topics. It is the belief that the world as it appears in my consciousness, as it is given to me, is somehow fundamentally real, foundationally real, and that therefore I can base my worldview upon whatever presents itself to my consciousness. For example, I might see a rock in front of me; I take that as real. I have an experience of anger; I take that as real. But the whole point is that what our awareness delivers to us is set in cultural contexts and many other kinds of contexts that cause an interpretation and a construction of our perceptions before they even reach our awareness. So what we call real or what we think of as given is actually constructed—it’s part of a worldview.

Re: God's Playing a New Game

my god is playing the same game he's always played - but I did find the dialogue most enjoyable - and all power to their elbows in following through on an alternative integral perspective of  Hawkin's - does God play dice ?

Re: God's Playing a New Game

“my god is playing the same game he's always played -”

Yes.  I believe the same.  I loved learning about systems theory last year and making the connection between God and a “Chaotic Attractor”.  I love it that we don't have to get the real, true, Big Picture.  Sometimes it feels good to “get it”, because we get to feel as if we can finally make a choice about cooperating.  But then, again, it feels good to have the rug pulled out from under us because that reminds us that we can't really screw it up either.  So, in this new understanding of the art and science of understanding, we get to add our realization of our One-ness with God to the idea of the absolute open-ness of the future and actually participate in Creation. 

Whenever I use the word “participate” in this context, I am always reminded of a quote from one of my favorite mystics - Thomas Merton. 

“Contemplation is a foretaste of the definitive victory of life over death in our souls. Without contemplation we indeed believe in the possibility of this victory, and we hope for it.  But when our love for God bursts out into the dark yet luminous flame of interior vision, we are enabled, at least for an instant, to experience something of the victory.  For at such moments “life” and “reality” and “God” cease to be concepts which we think about and become realities in which we consciously participate.”

~Ww

Re: God's Playing a New Game

“This view of conscousness creating our world view, is a ontolgogical stepping stone for every seeker of alternative realities from Timothy Leary and Aldous Huxley to the Dalai Lama.

What is the value of slapping new jargon on an ancient and well understood concept?”

What a gorgeous question! 

I think Wilber is going to take it further.  As you said, this idea is an “ontological stepping stone” for seekers.  It is part of the myth of a chosen few religious systems.  And that's great.  But Wilber is going to purge the ontology and myth and metaphysics for a very specific purpose. 

For those of us who dig spirituality, it seems redundant.  But many moderns completely ignored any religious thought which had myths and ontology, and so progressed forward without it's valuable input.  Anything that smacks of spirituality, for a mod, will necessarily not appear on the radar.  So, at least for this reason, it must be recontexted.  The postmoderns recontexted alot of great stuff in such a way that the mods would be forced to listen. 

I've actually never heard of it phrased as “The myth of the given” until I read that article.  I'm used to hearing it described within the idea of “Grand Naratives” and “plausibility structures” and such.  But there are people having this dialogue now who would never have been involved had we just stuck with the “old, old story” handed down by the wise, old heads of yore.

I know there's more to why he's purging the metaphysics, but I can't get my head around all of it yet.  I also believe there is a purpose for the creation of new terms, which you might call Wilber-speak.  Language has been great for transporting meaning between persons and groups so as to promote understanding.  But it has also created ruts in the road which we may need to get out of in order to see new posibilities of meaning.  Wilber is practicing some cross-country treking in order to get a fuller view of the land and make some new connections.  It may seem silly, but I think it's important work.

~Ww

Re: God's Playing a New Game

Good answer.

Wilber is giving us new words to understand old meanings.  Perhaps this is correct.

One of the kings of jargon is Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.  Contemplative kriyas turned into transcendental meditation; No god talk just creative Intelligence, No dharma it was now natural law, Uncoiling Kundelini energy became stress reduction.  The reinvention of ancient terms brought to western ears a deeper understanding of the path.  At a point in the 70's Maharishi had guys in business suits learning ancient seed mantras after hearing sanskrit devotional prayers, all the while thinking they were getting a scientific method for reducing stress.  Brilliant. 

I am looking forward to the new Wilber book.  I agree with much that Mr. Wilber says.  I am a skeptic by nature - Every so often when reading L. Ron Hubbard or Dr. Hawkins the jargon alarm goes off and I wonder, what was wrong with the conventional terms?  What are these authors trying to hide?  But maybe they are giving those old rusted ancient traditions the shiney paint job that is long overdue.

One more kvetch:  The spiral dynamic colors have been changed to match Ken's rainbow.  This complicates matters because now blue is amber and beige is infrared.  A fairly complex map has become veiled in a shell game.

Perhaps its all part of a scheme on Wilber's part to keep us on our toes.  A zen koen that has now been called an dynamic paradigm shifting enigma.

s.

Re: God's Playing a New Game

Isn't the concept of the “myth of the given” another way to decribe the problem of conceptual contructs that we take to be the territory, rather than the labels or maps? Our languaging minds so deeply connect  and overlay conceptual constructs, from what ever cultural, or personal perspective, that we literally do not relate to naked, raw reality. It is the method of un-masking of this tendency that is the teaching of so many wisdom traditions, but as KW notes, even they do not see the extent to which even their enlightenment is understood in terms of these constructs. I think its kind of ironic that KW the king of constructs is into un-masking them!

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Yes, the Simulacra factor.  Excellent!  That's why postmodernism has so much value and so much to contribute. 

~Ww

Re: God's Playing a New Game

Our buddy Ken put it succinctly:

Re: God's Playing a New Game

I think its kind of ironic that KW the king of constructs is into un-masking them!  yes indeed but I have to bear in mind that I still enjoy the pleasure of the company of my soul-mate - following survival of the big C

Re: God's Playing a New Game

Stu said: “Isn't the Myth of the Given just Wilber-speak for what Advaita's call Maya and Buddhists call Appearances?”

i think the myth of the given is closer to Kant's Transcendental Idealism.

Transcendental idealism is a doctrine founded by 18th-century German philosopher Immanuel Kant. Kant presents it as the point of view which holds that our experience of things is about how they appear to us, not about those things as they are in and of themselves.

so this is not something new. it's been around since Kant. they are not exactly “illusions” but “social constructs.” in a way it's similar with Buddhism's Dependepent Origination.

Wilber's integral post-metaphysics is something new however. it “attempts to reconstruct the world's spiritual-religious traditions in a way that accounts for the modern and post-modern criticisms of those traditions.”

one of the main differences between integral post-metaphysics from old spiritual traditions is Wilber's take on subtle energies. now that is wicked! :)

Excerpt G: Toward A Comprehensive Theory of Subtle Energies

Re: God's Playing a New Game

“This view of conscousness creating our world view, is a ontolgogical stepping stone for every seeker of alternative realities from Timothy Leary and Aldous Huxley to the Dalai Lama.”

Hi Ryan,

Can I ask: What do you mean by “consciousness creating our worldview”. I think i need to understand what you mean by that in order to see if I would agree with the other part of your statement.

Great to discuss these matters with everyone!

thx, Carter

Re: God's Playing a New Game

Carter-
It was my post not Ryans

Wilber:
But the whole point is that what our awareness delivers to us is set in cultural contexts and many other kinds of contexts that cause an interpretation and a construction of our perceptions before they even reach our awareness. So what we call real or what we think of as given is actually constructed—it’s part of a worldview.

Stu:
“This view of consciousness creating our world view, is a ontological stepping stone for every seeker of alternative realities from Timothy Leary and Aldous Huxley to the Dalai Lama.”
_____________________

Perhaps “worldview” is the wrong word. The primacy of consciousness theory asserts that consciousness somehow creates reality. Sometimes it takes the form of a divine consciousness that creates reality, and sometimes it takes the form of each individual consciousness creating their own personal reality.

I believe this is what Wilber is getting to with his myth of the given.  I am proposing this is not a complete picture.

s.

Re: God's Playing a New Game

If anyone lives in the Bay Area, there's  a discussion group on this article happening tomorrow night.

http://events.zaadz.com/450/what_is_enlightenment_discussion_group

check it out.

Re: God's Playing a New Game

I hope and trust  that  Stu's new thread elsewhere was raised at the Bay Area discussion - in view of the fact that Shias are killing Sunnis - Sunnis are killing Shias and all these Muslims that are killing their fellows of Islam are hell bent on destroying Israel -  evidence here in the UK at ground roots level  increasingly proves this to be the case!

As I have said earlier in this thread - I DO NOT believe that God's Playing a New Game - the evolutionary “game” he is playing is set in stone and requires ALL of  US to HELP EACH-OTHER & to HELP OURSELVES for the MUTUAL BENEFIT of ALL 6 billion of US

Re: God's Playing a New Game: As you evolve God evolves

I can't read fine print too long, so just scanned the first two page of the article. very interesting and engaging. Now  i mostly agree with what I read so far, including the state of enlightenment of most Tibetan and Zen masters. Ha..ha..boomeritis enlightenment.

Wish I could talk to Andrew and Wilbur…that a real awakening experience cuts through all beliefs systems and structures wihin one's own mental constructions and touches the very groundless ground and selfless self of Primordial non-dual reality like a big-bang in consciousness and it happens spontaneously following a vajra intention “to know” not for the sake of ego-self but for all LIFE.

If one is not looking for enlightenment. Anytime you approach the E thing with any speck of idea or concept or structure or image you would be back into your own reality creation box. Like to read the rest when I get around it. I am enjoying this magazine so far, despite its hip-hop title and pop appearence.

Re: God's Playing a New Game

If you are going to meet God, first you must have something to meet.  Since we are constructed of energy, we tend to think in the terms of energy, so it would be difficult for us to meet emptiness within any recognizable concept of reality.  We need to have a picture of God in order to meet God.  That picture comes from the things with which we are most familiar and that we trust.  Conversely, if the meeting is Gods idea, then the form chosen for the appearance of God to you (unless you have been bad) would be one with which you are the most familiar and the most trusting in.  Because we must construct the image of God in order to meet God does not mean that God is not real, or that our conversation with God is not real.  It just means we have some growing to do.

Re: God's Playing a New Game

I would say that if you are truly at ONE with god - you are already allowing god to be god within you - that being the case why on earth would I need a picture of god in order to meet god. Every moment of every waking day god is within me and without me and despite the workings of the mind, phsychology of visual and spatial perception, shadows etc etc I am in awe of the beauty of ALL that I percieve about me - which I have no doubt is god - as TAO, Buddha, Jesus et al.

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God within you is God within you whether or not you need an image to relate that to.  In speaking within the confines of Mr. Wilbers article, neither the reality nor the concept of God can be invalidated because of how or in what form God is God to us.  The argument could be made that even our physical perceptions of ourselves do not accurately reflect whatever true reality is.

The kindness of God is that we can percieve of God in any form, with any name.  Every form of God has something to teach us; every belief of God is a measure in our journey.  We have a fair concept of physical reality, the physical reality existing within the framework of energy.  We are physically constructed of energy, and therefore most of our understandings are based upon how energy does things.  Energy, however, is only a part of the consciousness of God.  God comes within us through the spaces between electrons, and so we are connected with all things and all places and all beings; and this is what we are learning towards.

I think Mr. Wilber is trying to explain the past to us within the framework of energy, and then extrapolate that through his perceptions into the future, but still within the framework of energy.  I would prefer to consider that which is not energy.

Re: God's Playing a New Game

 I would prefer to consider that which is not energy.

This is a potential paradigm shifter.  Do go on - what exactly do you mean?  I think of “reality” in terms of energy and vibrations. How might we consider “that which is not energy”?

Re: God's Playing a New Game

When our children were small, they had a wonderful story book which told the tale of 12 blind mice who came across an elephant.  None of them knew what it was, so they decided to separate and explore it and then decide what it was.  When they were finished, each of them had a different description, according to the part of the elephant each had explored.

To me, God is existance, reality.  The Consciousness of God (the concept of the Tao led me into this Consciousness) contains that reality.  One of the myriad things contained within that reality is energy.  Our physical bodies are constructed of energy, and the physical universe we inhabit is constructed of energy.  But, whether you call it mind or soul, we have within us (the spaces between electrons) the Consciousness of God.

Energy, to us, is like the proverbial squeaky wheel.  It is starring us full in the face at all times.  Energy moves, and so we follow movement, we measure movement, we consider that future movement will save us from past movement.  Mr. Wilber and Mr. Cohen are anxious to move things along, to enable change, to reinvent movement with new terminology while downgrading the explanations of the path.  They are keeping our attention with movement.

Like the 12 blind mice, we have all set out to discover what the great unseen presence is.  Each one of us returns with our own perspective, which is true for us and partially true in totality.  From my perspective, I feel it is important to explore that reality which is not energy, which is not noise, which is not constant movement.  Meditation is one way of doing that.  While meditating (and I have no formal training in this) we do not focus on the movement, and so are more able to recognize and explore the Consciousness that is in us and that we are within.

I do not mean to say that energy is bad, or that Mr. Wilber and Mr. Cohen are wrong in either action or thought.  They are acting on their perspectives and are not seeking to harm anything or anyone.  We should all be so enabled. 

Energy is what moves us along, it is how we evolve as physical beings; but energy is only part of us, and only part of reality.

Re: God's Playing a New Game

” I would prefer to consider that which is not energy ” - indeed so and the mountains are very special in that context aren't they ?

Re: God's Playing a New Game

Why do we need new words to explain past meaning? To confuse the point? To sell a new book?

Current science has validated the wisdom of the ancient rishi’s of india…..The Bhagavad Gita….The ture teachings of Budda and Jesus and St. Francis….

What are we really talking about here?

We need to wake up and start meditating every day to experience for ourselves what is discussed in theory…

Peace and Love

Yogi

Re: God's Playing a New Game

Yogi, I agree with you about the importance of meditation.  But this intellectual bantering is also a valid step towards the light.  We should keep cognizant of the fact that neither meditation or chat in and of themselves are the goal.

s.

The key to the treasure is the treasure itself.

– John Barth

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I agree that sincere talk bolstered by experience will help us to expand our consciousness.

We must, however, separate the wheat from the chaff. All levels of comprehension should be taken into account when relating truths so as not to alienate anyone…

Peace and Love

Yogi

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The Higher WE  infact  -  as Andrew Cohen has described it  - and in that context a new order of old words and the understanding  thereof has been established

Re: God's Playing a New Game

To you and I maybe, but I stand by my erlier assertion.

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I think Michael and Mr. Yogi Bear (I couldn't resist using that last name) are barking up the same tree.

On one hand there is the non-dual void.  Found this in an Alan Watt's book “The Way of Zen” 1957 p53:

It cannot be called void or not void,
Or both or neither;
But in order to point it out,
It is called “the Void”.

Nagerjuna

In meditation we bath our consciousness in this. Awareness is exposed to the void and becomes part of normal waking consciousness.

Yogi is telling us this is an important part of evolution.

On the other hand, Michael, Andrew Cohn and Ken Wilber are saying that we can find a common foundation in non-dual awareness that is only available through communication.  Sure communication is limited, dualistic, and messy.  But we are stuck with it.  Chop water carry wood (or something).  Lets find a common understanding of this non-duality.

Isn't this what you both are saying?

s.

Re: God's Playing a New Game

To get back onto this God's Playing a New Game thread - might I quote Ian Gardner's final statement of his preface to The Milk is White -  ” This is my truth; it is for you to find your own ”

Re: God's Playing a New Game

… and maybe there is no better way to sum up the Higher WE than to qote Andrew's latest thoughts in repect to An Awe-Inspiring Burden -

God, or the energy and intelligence that created the universe, is only as powerful in this world as those of us who have the courage and audacity to become one with our own impulse to evolve. When you realize this for yourself, you discover what an extraordinary blessing it is to be who you are, in this world, right now. When you awaken to the creative principle, you discover that the whole point of being here is to participate fully, radically, consciously in the evolutionary process. So in what I call evolutionary enlightenment, the goal is not merely to transcend the world so that you can be free of it, but to embrace the world completely, to embrace the entire process as your own self, knowing that you are the creative principle incarnate, and you have a lot of work to do. That is why, when you relinquish the ego and say yes to the powerful impulse to evolve, you find that you are in touch with a source of strength and conviction that is boundless. As an individual, you are instantaneously liberated, simply through taking that step, but that liberation is merely a byproduct of finally embracing the awe-inspiring burden of the evolutionary process itself.

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… has it  EVER been otherwise !

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I would much rather take the short route and just say…”I and my Father are one”…

But to each his own!

Yogi

Re: God's Playing a New Game

Re: God's Playing a New Game

Good stuff.  I think most of us are here because of experiences with “THE” way.  You can learn a lot more about God with a couple of “A” ways than you can with a score of “THE” way ideaologies.

But are we trying to hurry evolution too much?  No matter what we do or do not do, we are evolving.  The energy which constructs us is constantly moving; like the universe, we are both physically and mentally expanding.  And with that expansion comes a fuller awareness of the Consciousness that is both within us and that we are within, which I believe is what we are evolving into. 

As I evolve, I am better able to accept that Consciousness and to open up within it and, in doing so, commune with all existance.  If I empower myself to evolve, if I become the force behind the change, that implies I know what my destination is and how I am to get there, and when, which implies I will start making rules and benchmarks and comparisons and judgements, which are surely things enlightenment should not contain.

We evolve as we are ready to evolve.  I too am weary of pain, of strife, of war and hunger and hatred and the mechanical need to practise intolerance in order to enjoy community.  The more aware I am of Consciousness, the easier it is for me to realize I need to make changes, and to change myself.  But I cannot change others; I cannot say when someone else can change in what way on what day in which hour.  The most I can do is try not to hinder someone elses awareness.  We each evolve as we each are ready to evolve.

This may sound old fashioned, but, if I take control of my evolution, how will I know for sure that I really needed to turn right instead of left; how can I be certain that in taking that hop, skip and jump, I did not leave behind something I will really need somewhere down the path?  I have faith that “the universe is unfolding as it should”.  I wish I knew all the answers, the ways of all directions.  Instead I know a little, and contemplate a good deal more.  I do not think I need to drive the wave, but to be aware that I am riding the wave.

Re: God's Playing a New Game

Interesting question … I definitely have a different angle on this. Now this is a seriously subtle and delicate matter because I agree it sounds pretty arrogant and dangerous to say “I am pushing evolution forward”. But if you and I are THE very edge of consciousness evolving … consciousness becoming conscious of itself, then there is an inherent obligation to BE that creative force. You could say align to it or be responsive to it (these are also totally correct) but when we realize that the higher aspects of ourselves as a conscious human being are themselves evolved consciousness, then we become responsible for driving the whole thing forward …

Jesus this is hard to articulate! … but a really non-dual perspective requires the individual to discriminate between higher (evolving) and lower (inert) motivations … This itself is a creative act literally pushing evolution along! … because to do this your own consciousness, intention and volition needs to be engaged with absolute seriosness!!! At this point in the creation of the universe evolution WON'T happen by itself … by the very fact that you and I are reading and writing on this blog … we could just be watching “the Real World” on MTV.

RE “how will I know for sure that I really needed to turn right instead of left; how can I be certain that in taking that hop, skip and jump, I did not leave behind something I will really need somewhere down the path?” … You don't! … but if we truly have the intention and a pure motivation to evolve for the sake of life itself … we'll have the humility to see our mistakes and re-align! … Evolution IS a messy business, for real! … But the thing is WE are starting as a species to wake up so now everything is different.

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Will……I agree with you totally!

I would like to add that once you have tasted the fruit of eternal, ever-expanding bliss and consciousness, you will know in your heart, in your soul, that God (enlightenment) is the only goal worth having…This pale material world seems (and is) empty compared to the full true reality of a fully-realized ever existing and responsive God-field!

Peace and Love

Yogi

Re: God's Playing a New Game

The species we find ourselves in has been evolving since its creation.  If this “Time” is any more serious or dangerous than any other “Time” in our evolutionary process, it is because we make it so.  That is an energy habit we seem to have developed over “Time”; recognizing serious or dangerous periods which can only be rescued by extra credit energy activity.

There is a difference between forcing evolution into consciousness and evolving as you grow into consciousness.  Consciousness contains us, we contain it.  Consciousness allows us to know God, and to know each other; it is where kindness, compassion, empathy, love and soul friendship originate.  The degree by which we are able to experience and learn these things is directly proportional to the degree by which we are able to let our energies rest and open to and accept that consciousness.  We are to evolve and draw ourselves towards God, not grapple and grab and pull God towards us.

Purpose depends upon energy for its power and sustainability.  Energy allows the concept of power.  Power is very important to us.  It is, in many ways, the definition of the highest use of energy.  But power is a red herring.  There is no power in consciousness.  What need has God of power?  If we let energy drive our evolution into consciousness, then we can only understand conscousness in the terms of energy.

Patience.  Delight in the silence.   Dance in the emptiness.  Recognize God in the mystery of ordinariness.

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Yes, Dennis. You ride the wave, surrender to it, but you find that you are It! Consciousness isn't happening to you, you are awakening to it, that which you always already were. And you, I, all of us are evolving. Part of us is more conscious of that, and part of us is growing into alignment with that consciousness.  The idea that we are pushing the boundaries is very egotistical. The flush of discovery of this innate evolving greater Self, that is One with All, this godlike Self, can be incredibly intoxicating. But its simply what is. And it is the same for each of us, the discovery is wonderful, but then, apply it. Don't thump your chest about it. (I'm not refering to you here, Dennis BTW.)

And Yogi, “the fruit of eternal, ever-expanding bliss and consciousness”IS none other than the “material world” the same as the “full true reality of a fully-realized ever existing and responsive God-field”! 
Paradoxically  even the pain and sufferring of this world are none other than that bliss, when you see through it. But this wisdom doesn't ever dull our compassionate drive to reduce that apparent suffering.  We apply that compassionate wisdom, become the change, the wave of conscioussness/compassion that washes the shores of humanity.

Re: God's Playing a New Game

I remember picking up Da Free John's “The God In Every Body Book” and he said…

essentially….that God isnt “real” until we make God real by real-izing God.

Helps me when I get all “why me o lord?” on myself :)

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Wow to all of that since my last post to this thread - but maybe there is a new angle to God's Playing a New Game - how do you think the balls stick together ?

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…ah, ultra high speed film?

I must say, I agree with Michael; this whole thread has been has been a joy to participate in.  I am learning so much, and hopefully not boring anyone with my clumbsy posts.  I have been in other chats on spiritualism which sooner or later devolved into ego contests and/or slightly off color conversations.  These are not to be unexpected in many venues; people are who they know who to be.  But here, I really do feel like I have found a community of friends. 

I do agree with Mr. Wilber in his assertion that communication is important to evolution.  The more aware you are of consciousness, and the more you allow yourself into it and it into you, the more simple communication becomes as all things and places exist within consciousness.  But when you are learning towards that, the ability and opportunity to communicate with others enables you to learn what you need to learn.

God seeks each of us out in a manner through which each of us can best understand God.  If we can communicate those manners to each other, then each of our understandings of God can be that much more blessed.  That is what I feel is going on here in this thread and on Zaadz as a whole.  Thank you for what I am learning.

Re: God's Playing a New Game

RE “The more aware you are of consciousness, and the more you allow yourself into it and it into you, the more simple communication becomes as all things and places exist within consciousness.  But when you are learning towards that, the ability and opportunity to communicate with others enables you to learn what you need to learn.” … I couldn't agree more! Isn't this fascinating … I also find that as we discuss these things the collective understanding increases … almost like the more eyes/minds on it the clearer it gets, my own feeling is that this itself is consciousness evolving… it is a very felt experience like a germinated seed pushing its way through the topsoil!

I'm also really enjoying the dialogue :) , thanks Michael for pointing that out.

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and consider there are possibly more who read this thread; and while witnessing and meditating, we are participating , sharing, learning and evolving together &  further  ~

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I'm really appreciative to Ken and Andrew for helping me to understand these important ideas, particularly that of postmetaphysical spirituality in an evolutionary context. So many seekers must have gotten confused and off track with metaphysical thinking.

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The way in which you learn has a direct bearing on what you learn.  Most learning arises from conflict.  Conflict is a natural extension of energy.  Energy moves, and we are physically composed of energy, so the manner in which we learn also is composed of movement.

Conflict may be just the desire to learn something; it may be (for whatever reason) to find out what someone else knows; you may need to learn in order to earn a better grade or to advance in your line of work; there may have been an epiphany or trajedy which has made you go in a direction with your learning you were not prepared for; you may have an affinity for a particular culture or belief system.  Whatever the impulse to learn, you find actions and feelings which advance your learning and actions and feelings which impede your learning.  The conflict is always a part of the learning process, and absorbes a part of the energy you expend in the learning process.

Inside consciousness, learning ceases.  Realization occurs instead of learning.  The more of consciousness you accept, the more there is available for you to realize.  As example, imagine you are standing at the edge of a wood in the middle of the night.  There is no moon.  The darkness shrouds everything.  As you wait, the sun starts to rise.  Gradually the strengthening light makes the meadow you are standing in, the woods and the mountains in the distance visible to you.  As you accept the light, you can accept what is in the light.  If you do not accept the light, then everything remains in darkness.

Consciousness does not depend upon light or dark, or the physical machinations of the solar system.  You “learn” what you can realize.  You do not need a reason.  You do not have to find romance or have a child to “learn” how to love.  You do not need to either experience pain or observe others in pain to “learn” empathy and compassion.  Just realize.

You cannot realize if you remain tied to conflict in order to learn.  If you hang on to conflict, then all that you can find in consciousness will be based on energy, and energy is only a small part of consciousness.  Relax and realize.

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This material world is but a shadow of the true reality…..It is like watching a movie being projected on a screen…we can be caught up in the drama, or we can expand our consciousness and “look about the room” and see that the material world is but a projection, a mere shadow of reality….the one omnipresent, omniscient God field.

-Yogi

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Very well said Yogi - a simulation of the reality of the reality in fact

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Yogi

If “This material world is but a shadow of the true reality” then why give a shit about this shadowland?
Why are you even here at Zaadz then? Why “get caught up in the drama” of caring enough to change the world?
I believe that this view is only true to an extent, that there is the compassion side, that “relativity” or the world of duality and form is as “real” as the “emtiness” aspect. Don't get dualistic and be attracted to only one face of God. 

Re: God's Playing a New Game

Tamara……

You are right…we should not care so much about this “shadow” world….Equinimity is the goal of all yogis…

However, we (like actors in a movie) must still play a role in this drama, and depending on how we play our roles we can either move towards God and realization of the true nature of reality, or we can become mired in desire producing sense attachments which take us away from God…

So even though this is but a shadow world, how we conduct ourselves in this reality directly has an impact on our evolution…

When you see God in all….Good and bad, beautiful and “ugly”…a painting and a rock…Then you will understand the true meaning of equinimity…

Peace and Love

-Yogi

Re: God's Playing a New Game

Isn't this an issue of worldviews? Could't this apparent conflict be resolved by balancing the ascetic,austere ,ascending approach and the seemingly decadent, materialistic me first descending worldview? What would happen if the 'Descenders' created wealth with the sincere intention to share it for the common good of all (oh, oh, sounds like Socialism).That wealth had meaning and purpose beyond egoic self-centered desire gratification (not that i see this happening). But, what if?

Re: God's Playing a New Game

Yogi, I was not agreeing with you, I was confronting your ascendecy oriented dualism. there is such a state that is equanamous and compassionate, the deep immanance of Being.

I do agree with your statement; ” When you see God in all….Good and bad, beautiful and “ugly”…a painting and a rock…Then you will understand the true meaning of equinimity…”
This is equally a statement of deep love, an equal love for for All, and an identification with All.

I believe that a path that emphasizes detached uncaring attitudes is a misunderstanding of the true meaning of equanimity. It is escapism masquerading as enlightenment, an avoidance of pain, rather than transcendance of suffering. Only by deeply embracing the reality of suffering can we deepen through it, cracking the heart wide open as the sky, finding true equanimity in that spaciousness, while never negating the reality of that pain, for oneself or others. In this path we care enough to grow in wisdom in order to serve the relief of suffering out of our compassion.

Re: God's Playing a New Game

Yogi,
In my way I was trying to point out that you do care, or else you wouldn't have entered into the drama here in this “shadow” world, this discussion forum. 

Nirvana is none other than samsara.

We are God, and desire is God's nature, there is no impurity. Nothing ever did or ever will take us away from God…

Re: God's Playing a New Game

Tamara….You think that what I am saying is at odds with what you are saying, however, what I mean to say is that we must play our role in this material world with our eyes fixed on God….To have compassion for all…..the killer and the killed….not to just abandon the needy, but to serve them as God would have you….

Yet through all of this we must remain unattached to the outcome of our efforts…We must realyze that things work according to a plan…

Peace and Love

-Yogi

Re: God's Playing a New Game

Lets get back to the margin first !

Surely the essence of pure motivation - lies at the heart of the authentic SELF - and is itself the driving force of evolution … because that's the way it's meant to be - what IS IS and ain't no ISer - this might get you all into a New Game