Re: LETS GET REAL

AC is a Bad Boy. 

Some people really pay the big bucks for him to do that shit to them.  Seriously.  He's well known. 

And there is some real tradition behind the abusive forms of teaching.  In America and the “enlightened” West we mostly really frown on that, but in other places and times, this was the good stuff.  We are really excessively individualistic and not familiar with the forms of power relationships that are the daily diet for the rest of the world.

I think it would just be good if the Buyer was Aware before they wrote the check.  After that, they're on their own.  Like having surgery or taking major prescription meds: if you read the warnings and you still do it, you share culpability. 

—oOo—

Having said all that, I don't want him anywhere near me either.  I'm finding better success without energizing and fortifying the part of me that is afraid or hurt or resists.  Personally, I cannot understand how it would benefit him to do it that way.  It would seem to me that over-inflating the stubborn identity so that it cannot do anything BUT push against him is a complete waste of everyone's time, energy, money, life, etc.  I don't get it.  I really don't.  I just shake my head and keep my distance.

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

Thanks Ww
I attended 5 hr seminar yesterday billed as an Ego discussion but got a bad feeling that would not go away about 3/4 of the way through. I guess this is a good lesson in intuition & trusting my gut after your comments & these blog sites.
Thanks again
Tim

Re: LETS GET REAL

I went to the same seminar and thought it was an amazing look into the Ego…the only obstacle in the truly spiritual quest.  I have spoken to a number of people that were there and they really responded positively to the event and the topic. 

I can tell you that in the past I've often seen my own ego respond after a positive experience.  What I found was helpful was along these lines: Don't doubt the positive experience, but doubt the doubt.

Brian

Re: LETS GET REAL

Thanks, Brian.  This too is needed.

I am really innerested in AC's ideas and adventures of Evolutionary Enlightenment so I'm gonna stick around and keep learning.  I know there are plenty of people who have good experiences, so I like to hang out and mooch off them. 

But methinks both the doubt and the trust are totally legitimate ego experiences.  It's all part of the human experience.  It's all valid.  And in the end, it's all gotta go.

~Ww

Cohen: A Visionary

(I'm trying to post a longer reply than is permitted, so my post continues with further replies below.)

Tim and Whitewave, I really appreciate your courage and willingness to bring these issues to light.   Before I start commenting, I should say I've read very little of Cohen's work.  I've only heard from some friends about him (mostly all great stuff), read some good articles by him and also read the disturbing critiques linked from Tim's post.

You could say I'm in the business of conscious evolution–literally in the busine$$ of it–and this is probably evidence of bias in my comments.  Still, while I’ve written a very lengthy, somewhat biased and somewhat ignorant (as I barely know of Cohen), I believe it’s a worthwhile read.

I really like the spirit of what Andrew writes and his level of commitment to positive change.  I also acknowledge the level of courage and love it must take for him to keep standing for what he is standing for in a world so generally opposed to and critical of him.  The toughest thing, for him I am sure, is dealing with the criticism and rejection of those who have most understood him and chosen to join him in accomplishing his mission.  Ultimately, anyone who is so committed will evolve their teachings and practices to align more and more with what works.

Any resistance by him to evolving his methods when he witnesses unintended consequences, if we are to give him the benefit of the doubt, is probably more due the limits of his paradigm–not a default in his character.  My guess is that he has seen his methods work, more often than not, and better than other methods.

One question I'd like to raise is about the objective of his methods.  One's paradigm will shape definition of the objective, th problem and the direction of the solution.  It will shape what you define as “what works.”

If, inside his paradigm, conscious evolution or enlightenment (or whatever he'd say the objective is), requires the total crushing, transcending or eclipsing of the ego (as he defines it), and any resistance to such crushing, transcending or eclipsing is a sign of ego, then perhaps he sees the quickest path to CE/E is head on confrontation–even at the expense of a person's emotions or at the risk of them turning away and becoming psychologically damaged for the rest of their lives.  If the stakes for humanity and our successful evolution are seen by him to be extremely high (for example, if millions of us are dying or suffering unnecessarily), then he may deem such dramatic actions and risks to be worth it.

Perhaps, in his eyes, it is not just that the end justifies the means–but that the means is required for the ends.  This could be said of so many of us in today's world —even those of us who are “enlightened” or have visionary ideas.  We are often thinking/acting/speaking/teaching using Positionary strategies. 

Cohen: A Visionary 2

(continued)

Those of us with a Positionary consciousness or paradigm share a fundamental set of assumptions that could loosely be summarized in this way:  there is one Truth or right way of viewing reality and my job is to 1) find it, 2) defend it (often at all costs) and 3) promote it (again, often at all costs.  After all, if you do have The Truth or The Way, and all others are lost or unenlightened (and quite often “evil”), then it's not hard to justify the most inhumane of actions–including war and terror (and I am decrying neither of those strategies–my point is about the extent to which the ends can seem to justify the positionary's means.).  Also, with a One True paradigm, your ability to see alternative viable solution options is limited and so a solution can often appear to be The Only Solution.

Perhaps, though, Cohen is less of a positionary, and is simply someone standing for something–and is willing to honestly confront and question his thinking and his methods.  (But he may have made this more difficult, i.e., made his own evolution more difficult, if he has as some say, surrounded himself by those who simply believe and obey; and if he is enforcing such faith obedience to the extremes reported in the alleged cases.  In such situations all dissenters and independent thinkers get crushed or dismissed.  In this case, perhaps all who resist his teachings and methods are thinking and acting from “ego,” and can thus be easily dismissed.).

I am trying here not to assume too much about Cohen as I really don't know him and am not that familiar with his work.  Still, I think the issue of how we each relate to our personal development–or conscious evolution–or enlightenment, and what methods we are willing to employ or tolerate in regards to a belief system, path or guru beg examination.

There is an assumption (often hidden) in most positionary thinkers that we can force or impose our idea of what is good or right on others–and that this is a worthwhile undertaking.  If what is good is right action, and right action is X in Cohen's (or any of our) eyes, then we can easily find ourselves in a situation where we are leading people to value

1) obedience (being true to an authority's guidance) over integrity (being true to our own highest guidance),
2) blind faith (in authority's guidance) over honest introspection and questioning (looking within to our own higher guidance),
3) the authority's vision over our own vision.
4) the courage to follow blindly over the courage to act on one's own highest inner guidance

5) …

Is this not incredibly dangerous if what we want are conscious beings who are willing to face everything and avoid nothing and act courageously on what we see/think?

Could we not be killing the goose (the individual's heroic human spirit and his/her visionary capacities) to get the golden eggs of “right” action or “progress” towards our idea of utopia or heaven?

While we can enforce compliance in the short term, can we really force a person's mind or conscience?  (Victor Frankl and most of those who rise above extreme duress or suffering would likely say that while others can force our actions, they cannot force our thinking.)

Is it always “ego” in a negative sense that resists giving up our own mind, thinking and conscience to another?  Is it always an irrational fear and irrational selfishness that resists surrendering to another's guidance? 

Do we not all have the potential to be courageous conscious beings who guide ourselves with honesty and our own consciousness, conscience and vision?  Or must we surrender to a guru to obtain enlightenment?  (I am not decrying this path, only asking is it The path, and what are the limitations in such a path.)

Yes, most of us have seen incredible results by becoming conscious of the ways in which we avoid facing reality and cling to beliefs/positions that keep us psychologically comfortable.  We've come to have a healthy distrust of much of our own automatic/reactionary “thinking.”

Personally, I think that the ways in which we've come to guide ourselves irrationally, dualistically, self-destructively and “positionally” are more a result of our training and conditioning by mostly well meaning authorities to be “good” or to have our actions look “right” than they are an inherent weakness in human nature.  In their desire to get us producing golden (in their eyes) eggs, authorities have often killed the heroic human spirit and the independent thinking qualities of the potentially visionary goose.

The result is human geese who don't trust ourselves, don't naturally face ourselves and reality, and live lives unconsciously–seeking to appear as good and produce whatever color eggs we've chosen to call golden.

In a society that is so staunchly individualistic, I am a proud defender of the individual and one's own consciousness.  Personally, I do not think that most people, in the West especially, are going to evolve beyond their positionary consciousness by methods that employ more guilt, fear and shame–or surrendering or their minds–even if they are asking for it and paying for it.

Instruction methods that employ guilt and fear dynamics imposed by the authority (or the majority) tend to have the effects of increasing self-dishonesty and cowardice with respect to one's own inner guidance.  So intent do we become on looking good to the authority and what the authority thinks of us, that we look less and less within.  This results in the opposite of what our ultimate objectives are, no?  We become more conscious of what the authority thinks and we come to distrust ourselves more and more. 

Left more and more without our own vision, we become ever more the positionary–relying on what our chosen authority has proclaimed to be Right and True–and relying on his/her position and vision.  And ever more fearful do we become of facing the idea that we may have sold our minds and souls–or more, we've paid others to take them.

At this point, I wish to state again, this is less a critique on Cohen, as I am not that familiar with him, and more a defense of the human spirit in all of us–and a challenge to inquire into our methods as change agents and conscious beings.

Personally, I do not think that humanity will consciously evolve very far by finding, following and promoting the Right or True path or guru, as that just means switching from one position to another. 

In fact, in the West, I think that in general a much more efficient and effective approach to conscious evolution will be one that is

1a) free from more of the same guilt, shame and fear with which we've been brought up to be good;
1b) is more focused on developing our natural capacities for consciousness, honesty, vision, etc., rather than suppressing or punishing “wrong” thoughts or actions;
2a) does not lump all or most of human thinking together in the ego box, and call it bad, wrong, unenlightened, inauthentic or whatever;
2b) emphasizes, encourages and develops the powerful aspects of human nature and individual consciousness;
3a) does not in practice value the authority's version of Right action over the individual's capacity to consciously guide one's self to freely choose right action;
3b) values the individual's natural capacity (the goose) to consciously guide one's self over what that “authority” deems to be “right action,
4) trains us less for “goodness,” and instead encourages our natural greatness—our willingness to risk even the esteem of moral authorities and compatriots to stand for what matters most  (distinction part 1, distinction part 2)

Our great social, economic and technological advancements have highlighted the lack of sufficient advancements within.  In other words these technological advancements, while highlighting our intellectual strength, have shined a brighter light on our emotional/psychological/ethical weaknesses.

It's obvious to all of us that the world needs to change (and now!).  We must deal with the new problems posed by having so much technology to destroy ourselves and each other–yet insufficient solutions for guiding ourselves not to do so—and to instead harness our incredible intellectual strength to create a world that works for all of us.

Some of us see the basic problem being human nature itself, and we can divide these into 2 distinctly different camps.  Rather than using any popular terms to classify the 2 types, which can shortcut new thinking, I'll describe them.

1) Some of us have become so distrusting of traditional institutions of morality and our tendency to follow them that we've opted for eastern, New Age, or any of numerous other alternative paths for self-guidance.  We've come to define the problem as ego in general (which often is assumed to be all of our default ways of thinking and being).  But while we've chosen some promising new directions that are giving us some great results, we're largely still relating to them with Positionary thinking.  Thus many of us have simply replaced our old Truths or Paths with new ones.  (This is often the case even if we as individuals have become the new authority!  We may have replaced a prepackaged belief system or position with a self-created one that we then relate to as the answer or Truth for us.)

2) Others of us consider these new non-traditional paths (or any traditional path other than our own) to be the source of society's ills and have taken the path to more fundamentalism of one sort or another.  We've become more hardcore Christian or Muslim (insert your flavor of belief) and more willing to force our views on the non-believers.

Both of the above camps take different positions, yet what’s interesting is how they both largely see the problem as an inherent limitation of human nature–that we are by nature somehow bad, wrong, incapable.  And while the first camp is less apt to advocate military force to affect their notion of positive change, they're still often quite apt to use political force as a primary means to defeat the opposition.   Both primarily employ positionary, rather than what I'd call visionary, thinking.

While the first camp is more likely than the other to become (and stay) a zaadzster, in general I see most zaadzsters having (and coming to have) much more of a visionary, rather than positionary, approach to life and to change.

What separates a positionary from a visionary is not the content of one's values or beliefs, but one's relationship to one's values and beliefs.  The visionary is much more open to honest introspection and personal evolution, and thus has more power to BE the change and thus inspire even his/her adversaries to rise above their position and to align on shared values.

It's worth noting that many if not most people who see the fundamental problems in our world today as a fault of human nature are also Positionaries.

Cohen: A Visionary 3

(having problems pasting here… contiued from part 2 of post)

Why?  In large part I'd say that such people agree that the individual is not to be trusted, and we need, rather, to follow some variety of authority or guru who has powers we don't (whether that is a politician, a religious authority, an eastern guru, a scientific genius, a visionary philosopher, or some other elite person).

We can also subdivide the above two camps in the following interesting way.  Being as they share the assumption that human beings in large part are not to be trusted, they tend to define the problem in part as the individual having too much freedom and power (i.e., we’re bad by nature, so don’t give us too many weapons, tools, education, freedom, rights, whatever). 

So, a big part of the solution, then, is to limit an individual's freedom and power.  Conservatives tend to do it by using political force to limit an individual's freedom and power over his/her own personal life and choices, and liberals tend to do it by using political force to limit an individual's freedom and power over his/her own financial life and choices.  Generally, group 1 are liberal and group 2 are conservative.

Individuals in either camp courageously take stands to affect positive change in our world.  The major problem we face, as I see it, comes with how the individual relates to his/her values, beliefs and position.  To the extent that we operate as positionaries (the less courageous path), we invoke greater resistance and opPosition from the other sides–and less support from those anti-positionary visionaries who might otherwise join our cause.

The great challenge I see we face going forward is not which Position to force on humanity, but how to free and empower each of us to be Visionaries and engage our unique human capacity to utilize honesty, courage, love, compassion and vision to guide ourselves as visionaries, and to inspire the same self-guidance in others.

Our challenge is, as I see it, evolving from a Positionary Consciousness to a Visionary Consciousness–from a Goodness Consiousness to a Greatness Consciousness.  This is how I personally have defined the problem, and this is the direction I personally am looking in for new tools with VisionForce.  (A free course on some of the relevant distinctions is here.)

How does all this relate to the topic at hand–to Andrew Cohen and his organization? 

First, I trust that fundamentally, he is a human being who has committed himself so greatly to being the change he seeks in the world, that he is open to evolving his methods as he simply discovers more and more of what works to end human suffering and create a world that works for everyone.  As much as he has been courageously walking his own path, challenging the comfortable notion that enlightenment is something far less than a courageous alignment with being the change, he's a visionary… and he's aided far more people in being the change than he's hurt (and such hurt was likely a conscious risk of those who got involved, and something he’ll find a way to avoid in the future.).

Second, I believe the responsibility lies with the individual to defend his/her spirit and power/freedom to guide himself/herself.  Thus, one can extract great value from any of Cohen's concepts or practices without becoming a true believer or surrendering one's power.

Third, I support Zaadz's relationship with him, as he is as we all at zaadz are, sticking his neck out and risking the criticism of the world to BE the change he seeks and to inspire others to do so. 

Fourth, I am glad Zaadz is an open forum for critical thinking and a conversation such as this, and I'm excited to be around so many courageous change agents.

(finally finished with the daitribe… deep inhale… long exhale… aaaaaaah  ;) thanks for reading this far!)

Re: Cohen: A Visionary 3

LOL

I can't tell you how relieved I am to find out that I'm not the longest poster anymore!!  LOL

Love to all.

~Ww

Re: Cohen: A Visionary 2

Righto, dissent, yeah.

Yeah, the One Truth and the goon squad or …  space-monkeys …  oh, that's below the belt.  Sorry.  LOL 
[I love my inner Agressor.  I love my inner Agressor.  She doesn't have to take over out of fear.  She is welcomed in my world.  I love my inner Agressor…]  LOL  I'm such a freak.

“I think the issue of how we each relate to our personal development–or conscious evolution–or enlightenment, and what methods we are willing to employ or tolerate in regards to a belief system, path or guru beg examination.”

Yes.  Our relationship to our One Truth.  I am likely to “nullify the Good” if I enforce it:

“Is this not incredibly dangerous if what we want are conscious beings who are willing to face everything and avoid nothing and act courageously on what we see/think?”

…but also to our relationship to our relationship to it - or to our development which holds that Truth or if I believe that enforcing it is the Only Way.  I might nullify the Good, but then it's also possible that this might be what works for this or that person.  Is it really up to me to judge what works for them?  If I feel offended or sad about it, am I not judging in some way? 

But then, how do we honor or “do justice to” the pain of those who really were damaged at the same time?  Can we have a relationship to our relationship to the Good that can allow that much flexibility? 

Or maybe a better question - will others allow us to have that relationship?  Shared “we-space” is often cluttered with contractions that make this impossible.  How do we deal with that?

Re: Cohen: A Visionary pt 1

Michael,

Cool post(s).  Good point about the paradigm thing.  When you're in that box, nothing exists outside the box and that's final.  Your plausibility structure is only big and complex enough to handle what's inside the box.  Anything else is necessarily a threat.  And if your particular paradigm requires you to re-frame and reinterpret outside things from a “threat” to a “hindrance” or “resistance” and forbids the sensation of being threatened, then that plausibility structure is necessarily going to prevent any integration of new truth, but with a smile and a hug.  Preventing integration is what plausibility structures do.  That's their job.

And it seems probable that he would interpret and frame that prevention as “courage and love”.

Did you listen to the commentary track on the Matrix dvd's with KW and Cornel West?  KW points out that Smith is not actually “evil”, but that he is the disowned portions of Spirit forcing their way back into the plausibility structure of Neo and the humans.  (Yeah, I'm using my terms to summarize his point so there's consistency)  If we take that as one of the Truths so artfully tucked into that film, then we have to admit that framing and interpreting AC's opposition as “criticism and rejection” is not likely to bring about the defeat of such opposition - but rather inflame and strengthen it.

“THIS IS MY WORLD, MY WORLD!!”
~Agent Smith

It really doesn't matter which interpretation is plugged into the space.  Positive or negative.  Pro or con.  Yay or nay.  They are all dualistic and doomed to be dissolved in the end.  So, assuming this is true, how do we then proceed?

…???…

Re: LETS GET REAL

Hey. just came into this discussion and read Tim's experience of the Chicago evol. enlightenment (ala Cohen) seminar. Now just saw Brian's positive spin on the same event, except I checked on Brian's bio page and he's actually one of the promoters of Cohen's Chicago courses. Brian, I can appreciate your enthusiasm for defending this seminar and all, but it'd be cool to let us in this discussion know you're involvent with it - otherwise everything you say looks a bit suspect, wouldn't ya say?

Re: LETS GET REAL

Hi, Scott. 

Truth is a bitch.  And Truth be told, it can be said that the guys who are close to AC and EE and all that (Brian, Paul or aka Kosmonaut an Alain) are actually uniqely qualified to attest to Cohen's value BECAUSE they are close to him - as long as they are being as honest as they can be at this present time. 

On the other hand, a self described “innocent skeptic”'s  testimony can be called “a bit suspect” because the agenda of a skeptic is to intentionally doubt what the experts say.  Intentional doubt may sound like a good way to begin high quality inqiry, but it doesn't solve all problems of non-truth. 

For instance, the non-truth of forcing doubt simply because it has been handed to us by an organization or tradition - doubting the believer.  What if they're right?  Can that intentional doubt get close to the truth, in that case?  No.  It actually drags us further away. 

Epistemology is a beautiful thing - living and growing and changing over time.  One of the greatest gifts to the growth of epistemology has been the doubt of the doubter.  For those who cannot make the jump, it seems to threaten the very existance of truth itself.  But there are deeper truths which it reveals and which we must learn from.  Patterns form there.  The process of objectifying and enlightenment can really help to excavate some great stuff out of that.  And we have to incorporate it. 

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

Whitewave thanks for the reply. except I have to say, you completely lost me! or maybe you just blew my mind?????? anyway, thanks.

Re: LETS GET REAL

And another thing…

Would it be possible to try an experiment here:

Instead of everyone merely getting really triggered and worked up over this topic, how about if we just observe ourselves getting really worked up over it instead, and pass on all the miles and miles of text.  Really, there are tons of better things to do with our energy, yes?

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

Hm… 

I feel the need to clarify this even further.  Because this has traction in me.  Obviously.  I am still not fully cooked. 

The second link that you listed, Tim, brings up a good point.  (I only skimmed them, because I've seen and read so much of this already.)  The issue of being Incomplete or Intermediate is important. 

“…the way that the Intermediate zone works is through a sort of psychological contagion.”

This is important.  While I've tried and tried to look at this from as “skillful means” a perspective as I can (not very, actually, cuz I'm still pretty attatched) I still cannot come up with any scenario where this method would be beneficial - except in one way.  Because he is known to be this way, those who have issues around abuse will naturally self-select themselves to be with him.  Logically, this means that those who get really charged up on this issue while still blind to their charge (because they have not removed their awareness out of it yet, but are still trapped inside the persona as identifying with it subjectively) will come to him.  These, so he says, are the people he wants to deal with.  He's intent on breaking the strangle-hold of the mean green meme.  The I'm-so-spiritual-because-I'm-loving-and-peaceful-and-reject-power-structures type of identification because that identity is so subtlely close to True Authenticity in appearance, but really isn't.  It's still an ego-identity.  It's still a cage and limits our choices.  Believe me, I'm still very identified with this identity quite often, so for me to be aware of it enough to talk about it in the 3rd person is a HUGE step.  1-2-3

In issue #33, June-August, he is talking with Wilber and they come to agreement about Shadow.  The enlarged insert from Wilber nutshells it thus:

“Gestalt therapy will tell you to identify with your anger, Zen will tell you to disidentify with it.  So what should you do?”

Great!  Andrew is on the same page here:

“Yes, I wholeheartedly agree.  And to be honest, I've found that in the end, truly owning one's shadow, or being willing to face oneself unconditionally, radically and ongoingly, seems to be not only more challenging but ultimately more significant in transformative process than assuming a meditative posture.  I work with this shadow dimension in the context of evolutionary enlightenment, which is in some ways different from working with the shadow in a therapeutic context.  In this context, the shadow is seen as one manifestaion of ego, and the reason that it is so essential to heroically endeavor to take responsibility for all of it is so that our actions will be able to manifest a clear expression of a truly enlightened intention in this world.  I'm talking about a repeated demonstration of spontaneous integration and wholeness of intention and action, week to week, month to month, year to year, in such a way that we can unequivocally say: 'This individual is awake.'  The whole point is that unless the individual is willing to own their own shadow, they are going to continue acting out all of those repressed impulses and continue creating karma, which means acting out of ignorance and unconsciousness in ways that cause suffering to others.  And the whole definition of enlightenment is that, at least ideally, we are supposed to become so conscious, so awake, that we don't create karma anymore.  Until an individual can at least own a significant portion of their own shadow, they can't possibly take responsibility for themselves and become a truly autonomous, enlightened, integrated self who can really take on the evolutionary process.”

Wilber:  “That's for sure!”

GREAT!  So far, so good!

However!  What Kazlev describes as “psychological contagion” is what Andrew is describing as karma, here.  Andrew continues:

“Honestly, when you look at the kind of spiritual energy and passion that an individual would need to own all these different parts of the self, to truly endeavor to take responsibility for them and then to transcend them - this is a rare soul.  In terms of the real love for God necessary to truly become whole, it has to be said that it's a rare individual who cares that much, would be willing to do that.  In the end I really believe that in fact it is only those who awaken to a larger purpose, a purpose bigger than their own wholeness, salvation, or even enlightenment, who will actually find the energy and the resources to begin to own these darker and more unconscious parts of themselves and really change in ways that make all the difference in the world.”

Wilber:  “Rare indeed. Thank you, my friend.”

Wow, can I get on board with that!  Man!  In fact, I get quite a charge out of that kind of intention.  In fact, I've dedicated my presence here at zaadz to do EXACTLY THAT KIND OF WORK!! 

But look what is happening here.  This is the actual place we need to “get real”.  While his mouth is paying tribute to Universal Care, he is in fact displaying an intent and attempt to expand his Circle of Care to embrace more than himself by doing Shadow work, but it is still, very probably, still only at the self level.  This is evidenced by the wording ”will actually find the energy and the resources”.  This is what I call, “charge”.  And that charge often comes from Shadow.  Ironically, it is totally possible to want to do Shadow Work FROM A SHADOWED PLACE!  I should know.  I do it!

I have very selfish reasons to do Shadow Work and the fact that the end result is of benefit to the rest of the world is icing on the cake!  But if I do not look objectively at my self-serving reasons for doing it, I will continue to generate karma, and make other people sick with my “psychological contagion” because they will not be challenged to look at that part of themselves either.  Those who hide from themselves will attract others who hide in the same way, and they will all remain unseen - together.  As the Incomplete Teacher he doesn't yet have the means to show students their own Shadowed reasons for their seeming selflessness, and so he battles on with this Monster which seems to chase him everywhere he goes.  Even for him, this last identity is the last to go.

Every time I read the Guru/Pandit articles, I get the distinct feeling that Ken is looking right at him, but won't speak about what he sees.  And if Ken's not talking, there must be a reason. 

Either its all just for show and this contagion is the best way possible for American Individualists to get drawn upward, or it's truly, still unconscious and he's acting out. 

I can't imagine any other explanations.

Re: LETS GET REAL

I read those links and was disturbed and saddened. I enjoy the inquiry and open exchange found in WIE, while never having been drawn to Andrew Cohen, much of what I read of his teachings resonate (but not all). I admire Ken Wilbur's perspective and recognize that he knows from experience of what he speaks. But the teachers and teachings that reach me most deeply are those that teach love and compassion. Like the words of Christ. Like the Bodhisattva vow.

In the presence of one who teaches this, that presence alone is terrifying, the light itself lays us bare. There is no need of the “bad boy or bad girl” teacher. Demeaning peoples' egos is misguided, it doesn't create wholeness, rather illness, sadness, not freedom, but pain. The lighted one's lay us bare with love. No more is needed.

My idealist nature wants to see a spiritual teacher as enlightened, completely. I am beginning to see that all who are “enlightened” may be in some intermediate zone (and is someone who professes enlightenment, enlightened? isn't there a hubris in this that would negate that as true?)

In the spirit of compassion I am learning to accept my ego and my humanness, and extend that generosity to others.  The sword of enlightenment, that separates our “true self” from ego, that is figurative, and is a means by which the dualistic mind perceives, before realizing emptiness.  In realization/enlightenment one sees no distinction, there is no ego, and nothing needs to be done, there is no path, there is no enlightenment!

But this is my kindest assessment. If indeed, there are manipulations of other's loyalty, affection, and punishments and extraction of money using the aspiration for spirit as leverage, there is not even ignorance in that, just selfish, self serving cruelty. Just pain done to others for self serving reasons. It is really hard to see that behavior coming from the same person who speaks with wisdom at other times. If this is true, then my mind is blown away from more misconceptions about the possible in human nature. Can the Shadow be so huge as to create night and day in the same person?

Re: LETS GET REAL

I'm wondering if there are at least two kinds of students represented here (prolly more).

One kind responds to compassionate embrace by melting themself in order to allow removal of dross and shaping by the hand of a Love that is bigger than their own and until then, unknown to them.

The other kind responds by infating an ego driven need to be thought of as spiritual and selfless and is literally unable to see the difference. 

I 'spect this is so.  Tamara, I think you and I are both of the first sort.  The burning love you speak of is effective enough for me to get me to that place of submission.  I don't need to get into a fight about it.  Shrinks or Spiritual teachers who try to start something with me get precisely nowhere.  And those who refuse to witness their fight so we can get to a more productive place - for me anyway - get cut off quickly.  Anyone who is reading things in this pod as they come up have seen me do it very recently.  Fighting only inflames my ego driven need to be a victim.  Honestly, I have no need to keep feeding that.  I'm ready to let it go.  And if I'm not, then I'm not yet aware of that - and so need more light, not heat.  I'm ready for light.  I seek it out.  I shine as much of my own as I can into my Shadow, and try to stay alert when I'm getting negative mirroring.  Which parts are really true, which parts are my own retroflection or their projection?  Sorting that out is hard.  But I try.  Only the rare person is ready to help me do that while the shit is actually hitting the fan, so most of the time I have to withdraw from the conflict to get my ego to chill enough to lay down.  But it does.

However!

How can the second type of student be helped?  If they pay someone like Andrew to essentially be a hit-man for their own ego, how do you create and hold a space for that without violating normal, American or Western, mod or postmod ideas of what is just and respectful conduct?  And as anonymous mentioned, over at that first link, when the teacher is not done cookin' yet either (who is, really?) how do you have a fruitful interchange without it triggering this kind of warfare?  Is that even possible?  Surely these guys must be open to the possibility that their victim ego identification cannot help but be inflamed by this!  How can you get free of that when you have to fight a war?  And even if the Teacher is free of that in the begining, as anonymous mentiond also, how easy it is to get drunk on the smell of ego blood and end up feeding the abuser part of the ego!  What if he is actually conscious of this and still working on it?  Who of us is willing to give him the benefit of that doubt?  Power is scary shit!  Most of all to the inner I of the powerful!

This inquiry needs to move beyond the simplistic polarity of abuser vs. victim.  If there is a line between openly negotiated and contracted ego-killing and unlawful abuse, where is it?  And what is the realistic response when the line is crossed?  If the problem cannot be solved at this level, where is the higher level where the solution resides?  What does that really look like?

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

If you have no need, to feed the victim part of you. Then don't do it here either. Even by talking about it, you automatically are asking for compassion from others, enforcing that very victim part. Even if you do it without being aware of it, that is exaclty what troubles you. If you are not aware of the things you are doing, you are not yet ready to let it go. Find out, how your victim side sounds to others, find out why you have it. Find out what its innitial use even ever was. Even the first student you describe, needs to melt themselves, and none can do it for them. And cherrish the little shadow you still have. Even so, make it half dark, half light. You will need both, to fully understand the difference, and therefore the use.
The Ego, as you so aptly call it in ”how easy it is to get drunk on the smell of ego blood and end up feeding the abuser part of the ego!” Look closer, the only reason why people begin these 'wars'is because they are afraid. Afraid of failure, afraid loneliness, afraid of loss, afraid of disrespect, and afraid of what they do not understand. Give the regular ego a break, most of them are alwas afraid. It takes a master not to be afraid. It takes time, effort, and respect to discover, the why's of failure, loneliness, loss and disrespect. They all have good reasons.

Power is great, but as an old Parkour saying says: Power is nothing without control!

The higher level is, not needing to ask those questions. It is looking better, at what there is already, and how 'bad' your world really is looking. When selfishness, nor fear are part, of your nescesities for survival.

I wish you lots of luck!

Re: LETS GET REAL

“If you have no need, to feed the victim part of you. Then don't do it here either.”

Instead of coming at me in a prohibitive or punitive way, perhaps just letting me know that I'm doing it right now would be more helpful.  Decency is appreciated.

“Even if you do it without being aware of it, that is exaclty what troubles you. If you are not aware of the things you are doing, you are not yet ready to let it go. Find out, how your victim side sounds to others, find out why you have it. Find out what its innitial use even ever was.”

Exactly.  Yeah, I am doing it.  So, I get to see that because of your mirroring help, thank you.  And you can feel me asking for compassion.  That's great.  And it sounds like you see that as an expression of a Victim identification, but it's actually a Hungry Child identification.  I am more and more aware of this recently.  While I don't need to feed the Hurt Child, I still have to figure out how to protect her.  And while I do have to figure out how to feed the Hungry Child, one of those ways is not to use the Hurt Child as bait to catch prey.  So, you've been very helpful. 

And powerful.

My turn.

So, how did you feel when you gave me this command, “Then don't do it here either.”  Who is speaking to me here?  And to whom are they really speaking?

These deep inner beings are part of the healthy psyche, and like Tamara is saying, as loving and compassionate embrace and love draws them into the light of awareness, they lose their oppressive desperation, the charge decreases and they become easyer to let go. 

“My vision of a healthy approach, a good teacher, is one who you can practice with, who's presence itself creates a field you can enter, and enter into direct experience of expanded states. There is fire in that presence, and that light exposes your shadows. The pain of seeing those shadows, and the love required from both teacher and student, for themselves that is required to grow through this exposure, and the trust in the process and patience, this is what I would wish for.”

The forceful and pushing energy that comes from Shadowed and unconscious negative mirroring feeds the dualism.  Inflates it.  Making it easyer for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than to get that ego to lay down it's life. 

“Even the first student you describe, needs to melt themselves, and none can do it for them.”

Did you mean the “second student”, because I already said that.  And that would be a good point.  Does all that pushing and shoving really convince people to melt themselves?  I'm not being sarcastic, I'm really, actually confused.  If that is the only way for some people, then I guess it has to be done.  But I just have a hard time believing it.  I can't relate.

“And cherrish the little shadow you still have. Even so, make it half dark, half light. You will need both, to fully understand the difference, and therefore the use.”

I fully agree.  I do cherish it.  And I try not to abuse it.  And even my Shadowed inner Abuser needs to be cherished because like you said,

“the only reason why people begin these 'wars'is because they are afraid. Afraid of failure, afraid loneliness, afraid of loss, afraid of disrespect, and afraid of what they do not understand.”

So, the only way I'm gonna decrease the amount of karma or psychological contagion is to love that Terrified Child and become worthy of her trust.  I have not neglected to “look closer”.  I've clearly demonstrated my closer inspection here:

” What if he is actually conscious of this and still working on it?  Who of us is willing to give him the benefit of that doubt?”

What makes you think I have?  Who is speaking to me there?  And who does that person really think they're talking to?

“Give the regular ego a break, most of them are alwas afraid. It takes a master not to be afraid.”

Fear has a powerful charge.  The more Shadowed it is, the more destructive it can be.  Giving Fear a break is at the top of my list of things to do right now, believe it or not.  But I don't think it is realistic to have no fear at all.  Fear helps us live morally in the world.  Not just fear of punishment, but fear of our own destructive power - both coming and going.  That's healthy fear. 

“The higher level is, not needing to ask those questions. It is looking better, at what there is already, and how 'bad' your world really is looking. When selfishness, nor fear are part, of your nescesities for survival.”

There's something about that that is right.  Doing “The Work” at this can seem like a solution because the charge on everything effectively drops down to zero.  But if you'll notice on page 24 of the latest WIE? issue, even attempting to completely eradicate all traction like that is a violent act on those who have been hurt and require some recompense.  It can actually  be repeating the violence.  Like putting a rape victim on trial for her crime of “asking for it”. 

When incorporating the Non-dual Ground within our daily acts in the world, there must be some respect for the fragility of the manifest realm.  I love what Ken Wilber has said about this,

“We must forgive each other our arising, for our existance always torments others.  The Golden Rule in the midst of this mutual misery has always been, not to do no harm, but as little a possible; and not to love one another, but as much as you can.”

So, I think after one has been up there in the clouds and seen the complete absense of traction and felt the peace and all that, we have to descend to a level where there's actually some traction both coming and going, but be able to use that traction in the submissive service of a higher Good.  Not a Totalizing Good, which comes from below, but an Integral and Reconciled Good which comes from above.  This will prevent the meanness which is evident in the MGM down in 1st Tier. 

You wish me lots of luck? 

Thanks, I guess.  But I dont' think I need luck as long as we're still trying to help one another here.  Aren't you trying to help me?  Wishing someone luck has the ring of disconnection - like hanging up the phone before the other person gets a chance to respond.  You've said alot of personal things about me.  You're still gonna hold the space open for me to respond, aren't you?  Cuz, otherwise that looks like a drive-by.  I'm not accusing, I'm asking.  I realize that patterns of speach lose some meaning in translation.  You may not be aware.

Now.  I hope my Hungry Child has repaired some of the damage she did to my Hurt and Terrified Children in this little excursion.  If I've overdone it, I'm truly sorry.  I've got alot of history and established patterns to overcome.  I trust you're not immune.

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

How I felt when I said it? hm, not special or anything. I felt more like I had to confront you. (thus the indecency). And I am of course speaking, to someone I do not know, In a world I do not live in. Some scepticisme may be considered. As far from everything that I say holds real truth, that you might want to consider as becomming yours aswell.

No I ment the first. And I hope that you said the same as I said.

Aye, Fear can save your life one day. But not the ones I mentioned earlier.

I do not read WIE magazine, and I will not use other people's experiences as proof or arguments of my own life.

I'm rather immune. I have seen and experience much more bad things than anyone on this Forum ever guessed. First hand that is. I'm even gratefull that you have written such a maticulous piece of work, for my poorly spelled in 5 minutes oinned down little story, before I went to bed. And yes, probably A lot is lost in translation, I certainly do not wish to end this conversation.

Though I do not know what you mean, with either a hungry child or a tier, etc. Remember, I usually speak to people in person. And in somewhat the same language.

But I like what you write, a bit long perhaps. I hope hearing from you again. (and If I forgotten to answer some of yout questions, please re-ask them into a more sucluded context. ;)

Ciao

Re: LETS GET REAL

Thanks, man. 

Love and peaceful dreams to you.

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

I don't see this in terms of victim and abuser. That may be the end result, and those un-conscious archetypes may play into the drama of the relationship.

I see this as a basic misunderstanding about the “problem of ego”. The problem is confounded by the fact that we have experiences that take us to a state of egolessness, then in order to teach, or talk of that, we relate from our mind, through our languaging, which is invariably dualistic. Then we try to solve “the problem of ego” (this thought itself is born of dualist thought!) through dualistic methods, “killing the ego” etc. You don't solve this “problem” from the same level of consciousness it comes from.

Just experiencing this egoless state, a state withought concrete thought, does not immediately teach us new thought patterns. We may have mis-perceived the “causal” conditions that brought us there.

So the approach that is unhealthy is born of a dualistic mind set, a thought form which is very very persistant, almost a truism in spiritual teachings and traditions, that pits our “true self” against the ego, or tries to transcend ego, kill ego, etc. Shadows invariably result from the disowned parts. You don't solve this problem from the same level of consciousness that it comes from. When you experience non-duality the ego no longer exists as a problem. It is seen through, its just a thought form that we contracted around. The repeated exposure to an expansive state gradually wears away our conditional thinking of our indentification with the contracted state.

But if we have a thought that this experience confers “enlightenment” as a permanent and abrupt change in ourselves, that we have no more ego, then we can be very blind to the expressions of ego, or contracted small self still emanating from us. This is the second problem born of dualitic thought, the either/or problem. That you are either ego or true self.

So when people “sign on” to have their ego killed, they are buying into an unhealthy approach. I truely hope that our culture matures beyond this thought form, of ego death as means to enlighenment.

My vision of a healthy approach, a good teacher, is one who you can practice with, who's presence itself creates a field you can enter, and enter into direct experience of expanded states. There is fire in that presence, and that light exposes your shadows. The pain of seeing those shadows, and the love required from both teacher and student, for themselves that is required to grow through this exposure, and the trust in the process and patience, this is what I would wish for.

Re: LETS GET REAL

“My vision of a healthy approach, a good teacher, is one who you can practice with, who's presence itself creates a field you can enter, and enter into direct experience of expanded states.”

Interestingly, I had a flash experience of this last night when I followed the link in the EnlightenNIXT blog to Andrew's former teacher Poonja Poonaji.  I could feel myself starting to fall over the edge…  Timing, I guess.

Yes, yes, yes. 

And, for the sake of checking myself and my motives…  how do we keep checking to make sure that we haven't settled into an egoic imitation of the Authentic Life?  I do believe that such a thing is possible and makes any future power to Integrate and Embrace less and less present.  The ego solidifies that which is supposed to be liquid.  Like the Law, it reflects Good ideals, but it is not Goodness itself.  …

I think this conversation is going much higher than the one's I usually see about this topic.  And that is encouraging.  I think we should keep going. 

But I have to run for now…

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

Hi Ww,

Did you have a chance to read the WIE September issue article The 1001 Forms of Self-Grasping 

or …  Do You Really Have to be Somebody Before You Can be Nobody?

I thought it really dealt well with these sorts of issues, better than I have seen before. Then again, I've only just started reading WIE.

Namaste,

Nicole

Re: LETS GET REAL

Are you talking about the current September issue?  #34?  The 15 Year Anniversary one?  Cuz I looked from cover to cover and didn't find it.  Do you have an issue # and page #? 

I'll check it out. 

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

No, I wondered where this came from till I received my first emailed newsletter, I signed up for it recently. This is the link. I found this article really enlightening on a number of levels. Its worth a read.

As a psychoanalist Jack Engler sees the positive aspects of ego, and the problematic aspects of doing battle with it in a spiritual practice;
But talking about ego in a spiritual context, to me, is even more problematic. It gets talked about almost like it's an alternate personality within me that is bad; it gets reified as some part of me that I have to battle with, that I have to transcend. I think spiritual language reinforces a lot of dualistic thinking when we talk about ego that way-unless we're really careful in how we define it. Now instead of “self versus other” it's “self versus ego.” And so the struggle just continues in another guise.

I don't get the impression that Andrew responded to this or even really “got” it.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Hi Tamara,

Thanks for providing the link. Yes, I too got the impression that Andrew was a bit out of his depth in that interview (please correct me if I'm wrong, Andrew, I'm just a newbie here), but doesn't Jack have some great things to say? Really integrated a lot of thinking for me. I highly recommend it to you all.

Namaste,

Nicole

Re: LETS GET REAL

Great article, i think the only people out of their depth would be us. : )

Re: LETS GET REAL

Shoot!  Well, who's gonna help poor ol' us understand, then, Paul?

I'm glad you and Alain are here.  If the doors are closed, we can't possibly have all the information.  Please help.  This issue distresses people. 

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

HOLY COW!!

This article is great!  And I've been making connections all over the place! 

Yeah, this is a back issue.  #17 from the year 2000.  Jack Engler is actually very articulate about all this but when AC asks questions or comments, it almost seems as if he either didn't really understand what he just said, or is redirecting and reinterpreting into his own framework.  I wonder if that has something to do with how it was edited.  Maybe this has been chopped up and big parts are left out…  It doesn't flow.  These people are speaking in two different languages. 

But at the top of the 3rd page, AC does articulate pretty well for us why he doubts. 

“AC: In my own teaching work over the years, I've found that when one courageously looks into what enlightenment promises, one discovers an absolute perspective. And after that discovery, one either sees oneself as the one who was wounded and traumatized, or one recognizes oneself to be that which was never wounded or traumatized by anything.* I've seen people leap from the perspective of the ego to one beyond the ego. One in which they discover a completely different relationship to their own experience. This new, liberated perspective may indeed include the awareness or memory of trauma, narcissism, fear, doubt, etcetera, but now, because they have discovered a completely different way of relating to their fundamental sense of self, their relationship to the ego and all of its baggage will be transformed.

You say that psychotherapy and Buddhist meditation practice often work hand in hand and that they work with different parts of the self. But I've noticed that when we allow ourselves to identify in any fundamental way with being the one who suffered, who was traumatized and who therefore needs to be healed, it inevitably has a profound effect on the way we relate to the very real and maybe continuing effects of whatever that trauma may have been. If, from the context of enlightenment, we have recognized the ultimate insubstantiality of the ego or personal self—that from an absolute perspective it does not exist—not just intellectually but deeply through our own experience, our relationship to whatever may be the continuing karmic consequences of our personal history is going to be very different than if we are convinced we are exclusively that separate self.**

I wonder if psychotherapy and meditation practice really do work hand in hand to heal and liberate our humanity in the way that many transpersonal therapists say they do. I mean, theoretically they do, but because the context of the inquiry in psychotherapy is always relative, by definition—which means giving significance to the woes of the ego or personal self—I often wonder if, without an absolute context as the bottom line, psychotherapy could ever have anything to do with what liberation has always been about.***”

*That first part that I put in bold print is how he arives at his duality.  Very clear.

**I see here that twice he stated that our relationship to the consequences of trauma and hurt are different, but he doesn't go into what that difference is, so I think it's safe to guess that he is VERY concerned about that relationship.  And from his experience, the fulcrum point seems to be whether or not we allow ourselves to identify with that self in any way.  Gotcha.

***Okay, so his view of absolute vs. relative is very inneresting. 

I think the Church has called this debate one of “absolute value or law vs. situational ethics” or something of the sort.  When the Church had the power to deliver death, it dealt out alot of death because people broke “absolute laws” - whichever absolute laws were in favor at the time or conveniently provided an advantage for the Church to gain more power… 

In fact, the Absolute, when in mere human hands, has this tendency to become a really great reason for brutality.  That old saying still holds true alot of the time, “Absolute power corrupts absolutely.”  It tends to put a spell on us that makes us think we have grasped the only thing in the entire universe that is valuable, and everything else is worthless.  When you reinforce that duality, power centralizes and the ego, which is grasping this Absolute, becomes stronger and stronger and more and more brutal.  Regardless of whether or not one wants the ego to be the one who has grasped the Absolute, in reality, it is only ego who can grasp it. 

The Church has been made to deal with her sins over this issue.  And she is dealing with it in many places.  Her history is so very obvious to Westerners.  But I wonder if the East doesn't have a few skelletons in her closet as well…

Regardless, two things need to be examined:
1  AC seems to view the person as a static or unified whole which has only one decision to make.  To Be or to be?  But JE is saying that the person is at the very least a much more complex thing which must be gathered together before one single decision can be made - or similarly - since it is as complex as it is, it must make several decisions and maybe even at several different times and different levels in order to really arive at the place of One.  Otherwise, what has arrived is only partial, and something has been left behind which is significant. 

I get the impression he believes he is struggling with adults who act like children.  But what therapy has taught us is that the opposite is actually the case.  These are children pretending to be adults.  They're tryin' real hard to be adults.  But they just aren't.  And the more we demand adult decisions of them, the more they try to conceal the truth.  The more they conceal the truth, the less likely that they will actually mature enough to make those free, autonimous, adult decisions and the more likely they will finally just give up and cave in to the stronger personality - like children actually do.

I wonder how many of the people who have “arrived” are really just seriously truncated people who cannot possibly be a friend to normal people or really love them because they've left behind the part of them that is vulnerable or aggressive - in the name of “authenticity”.

2  If descent into the duality, after spending some really grounding time in non-duality, is necessary, then what are our actions to be about if they are not to be about Totalizing? 

I 'spect that the Brutality is a sign of Totalizing.  Totalizing is not going to bring the answer.  It will necessarily chop off things that don't fit into the box.  On the other hand, Integration comes at it very differently.  Bringing in the parts of everything that actually work but not having to put them in a box.  Time moves on and there will always be new things which need to be brought in and as things change, old things will lose their effectiveness and they will just fall off.  Integration is organic, liquid, mutating.  Totalizing is like Writing the Law on Stone Tablets.  One of my favorite verses in the Bible is this new future vision which has haunted me and kept me going in the right direction since my youth:

“I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a hert of flesh.  And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.  You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God.”

So, looking through the Mythical surface texture to the deeper structure of that, it's clear that there's a place beyond force, over and above it, where the solution of Universal Care is - and it just doesn't exist at the level of the problem.  The Truth that the Church is learning now is that you can't legislate morality.  It must be freely and autonimously desired with every fiber of one's being.  Each of those fibers has to go through their own labyrinth of objections before finally finding that sweet desire, but they each hold that hidden potential.  Some of those fibers take more time to find that desire than others.

—oOo—

And so, what is my ego doing right now with this?

That part of me which contends against the Abuser is definitely engaged.  This is, of course, inevitable.  If you're going to fight a war, you have to be single minded about it or you'll most likely end up dead. 

AND

Another part of me can hold that contender with an open hand and just as soon put it down and pick up another part if the need arises.  Where does this freedom come from?  What kind of relationship is this between my parts?  And since I haven't acquired it from Enlightenment, where did it come from?

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

You're in really deep, Ww! Thanks for pointing out it's a back issue. I hadn't noticed.

You go into a lot of interesting things. I wonder what Andrew would have to say to all this? Does anyone ever ask him, or is he too busy?

Namaste,

Nicole

Re: LETS GET REAL

Well, this pod is acting as the official discussion forum for WIE? magazine online.  I think.  So, someone is undoubtedly looking in.  The editors are here from time to time.  This is no fan site. 

I'm sure that task is delegated, just like it has been over at Ken Wilber's “Integral Naked” site.  Sometimes Ken has been known to come in for a landing to set the peeps straight about something or other.  Maybe AC will do so as well.  Maybe someone will relay a message for him. 

His response is only part of what is important about this discussion, methinks.  It is also our job to not let our own stuff interfere with our own spiritual growth - otherwise he is right about ego being the cunning adversary of enlightenment and nothing else.  So our response to this side of the issue is of critical importance to us, regardless of his response. 

If Oneness is the Truth, then at some place - there is no conflict.  Regardless of him, can we alllow that truth to exist unhindered by this conflict or not?  That's one thing I don't really get from those two links that are at the top of this thread. 

But then again, I haven't been under his tutelage.  It's easy for me to blather about it.

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

WW,
     You make a leap here referring to the Absolute in Judeo-Christian terminolgy, or “the Church”.
I believe AC here refers to the Absolute as a synonym for the Eastern concepts of the non-dual as the real reality, and the relative, or relativity as the dualistic less complete view. Problem is that so any people who don't really “get” a mature understanding of non-duality, create a duality between the two! Its a paradoxical kind of thing, but the Absolute includes relativity, which is never any less real.
This dualizing tends to be favored by those who wish to transcend, get up and the hell out of this suffering realm! I think Ken Wilber has it better, in that he says, 'transcend and include”, but even so, I'm not sure that a transcendant, upward bound,bi-polar model isn't too dualistic still. Deepening and immanance feel more real to me. :)

Re: LETS GET REAL

I know.  But that distinction isn't important to my point.  My point is that if you use an External Authority Structure (or something else that is Not-Me) as the Highest Good, and a goon squad to enforce the highest Good, it nullifies that Good.  It doesn't matter where the Good is grounded.  Dualistic or non.  The Judaic Tradition recognized that even a Dualistic Good (Which is debatable if you talk to the Kabbalists) ideally shouldn't be spread this way.  Why does Non-dualism think it's immune?

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

Dualistic behaviour pattern itself is cunningness.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Whiotewave,

You are in powerfully moving towards the highest transformation. So, most of the time you need inaction. In this stage inaction is important than the action, but you feel write go on write because it also depend on your inner energy economics. Whatever emerges in your brain cell write it down on the paper. Do not try to write a book. If it become book its ok, but consciously trying to write a book also represents our mental hypocracy. When nature gave birth to you; remember that she also knows to take care of you. Declare a submission, a complete submission. i have realized one thing that your energy is running like horse of the Race-course. Move ahead with the eternal spirit of Truth. Since ages, we have failed to generate a powerful woman on earth. Now, i am feeling, that eternal woman may emerge within you. Whenever you become upset you just recall me in the mind. That is enough; message will reach me.

Chandra with infinite spiritual love

Re: LETS GET REAL

I'm trying real hard to receive this… 

I feel quite embarassed…
And afraid…
I wanna figure out what that's about.

At any rate, thank you.  I'll pm my real response. 

…so embarassed…

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

Don't try. Trying itself is commercial mathematics. Give a complete freedom to your unconscious mind. All human conscious minds are cunning one, but unconscious mind is eternal. It can stay only with the Truth. Ancient Sages named it as a soul. Only after mastering this inner mechanism of the mind spiritual people have predicted the future wonders in the Holy Scriptures. Every unconscious mind is connected with DNA system and every minute movement of the past, present and future recorded in the DNA chip, which is completely capable to guide you at a right time, in a right way with the right spirit. Keep confidence on the super computer of the inner and never become slave to any teacher. Do you know why I am confident to change the world? It is only because of the eternal beauty of the unconscious mind. It cannot and will not go against Truth. So, changing this world is as easy as drinking coffee for us, but we cannot do any action if the space-time is not ripe. We are waiting for Chair Person for our mission. We know that she is a woman. Go ahead my friend. My radio waves are always with you.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Whitewave, I like you!

Re: LETS GET REAL

Yes, the ends do not justify the means. If goodness is the intended end, then goodness must be the path and the means. Or like you say it nullifies that good.

Its not about dualism, or non, ecept that since all actions cause reactions, everythings onnected, is one, then the means affects the ends.

I had just been trying to clarify the use, and usual context  of the terms “Absolute and relative” as I thought they were used by Cohen. (and the mistake he made using them)

Re: LETS GET REAL

Thank you Tamara.  A breath of fresh air here. Like Tim (our thread originator) I have weird feelings around the enlightenment evolution game, not in theory, but in groups who are organizing themselves around almost like pod-people. i also read the blog of people who fled the strange and hurtful “means” to evolutionay “ends”. I just don't buy it. did you check that out? (www.whatenlightenment.net) scary stuff.

Re: LETS GET REAL (i.e. the excommunicated)

Follow the money!  Can you say C O M M E R C I A L I S M?  But why be surprised, they've been marketing God for centuries. 

Re: LETS GET REAL (i.e. the excommunicated)

That is funny, I was just thinking the same thing.
YOU DO NOT NEED A  MAGAZINE TO TELL YOU WHAT TO DO!
Nor a bible, or a Quran, or a Ikea-magazine. It is all in your head :P (how mean of me to say so)

Re: LETS GET REAL (i.e. the excommunicated)

They can however give you a fresh idea.

Re: LETS GET REAL (i.e. the excommunicated)

Fresh ideas? Awesome!

Re: LETS GET REAL (i.e. the excommunicated)

Commercialism? Is that something like Capitalism? Isn't that something like what Zaadz is doing. Maybe we should stop supporting Zaadz. They want to make M O N E Y you know? The great E V I L.

 Did you know that  WIE is a non-profit organization?

 “they've been marketing God for centuries.”

I didn't know WIE had been around for that long.

Re: LETS GET REAL (i.e. the excommunicated)

Dear Alain,

Profit motive is universal. Only exceptional people are out of it. Every enlightened person is selling idea. WIE or Integral Institute of Ken Wilber is not out of it. Just ask yourself! Why these two organizations also cannot become one. PROBLEM EXISTS IN ENLIGHTENED IDENTITY. We all need our own identity, our own mental slaves and people's appreciation. But as per the Buddha's declaration, there is no difference in heavenly or material profit motive. Next week America may enter into Martial law, but the question is what WIE and Integral Institute will do against unjust of the government? Talking on Gandhi and spirituality is easy, but who will fight like Gandhi that only counts for me. Let me see the development. Meanwhile, go through the link below to and pardon Bush.

Pardon Bush for breaking the law?

Chandra

Re: LETS GET REAL (i.e. the excommunicated)

What is money?

Re: LETS GET REAL (i.e. the excommunicated)

Money? money are those metal circular plats which you can save up, or build towers out of. the can also be used for diving up, or skimming on the water. Also to keep your paper down when the wind is blowing. Money can be usefull, but therebly inconveniant. You can buy a lot with it.
You see, you can by sex, but not love.
You can buy a house, but no home.
You can buy a watch, but no time.
You can buy a book, but no knowledge.
You can buy power, but no respect.
You can buy medicines, but no health.
So, as you noticed, money isn't important!
It will probably cause you a lot of trouble.
I'm telling you this, because you are my friend, And I do not want to see you get hurt.
So, send all your money to Domus Ulixes IBAN 1234.4567.7890
I'm glad I could have helped you ;)

Re: LETS GET REAL (i.e. the excommunicated)

Ow well, that President W Bush, controlled all of the 3 politicas we already knew. It was America's own senators who voted for the patriot act, legalizing all that. So, according to American values, democratically chosen… So Do I agree with such policies? No. Why would I? Would I actively do something against it? No, not now. Am I planning to? Sure, but I wonder, that when I know I'll succeed, the current government, or even form of politics is still in. Currently I wonder more about my own country.
But yes, I fully agree.
The question is, what will those wonderfull talkers, do, when they should be done talking?

Re: LETS GET REAL (i.e. the excommunicated)

I see money as a neutral mode of exchange. I mean, if you love Rocky Road Ice Cream in this society then you gotz to buy it! (loving Rocky Road doesn't make one evil).I would say that today it would read “the lust for money is the root of all evil”. Perhaps, the better question would be: Is this material, commercial society we've created “God's intention for us”? Also, What is evil? What is evil's relationship to 'God'? Can ultimate evil be personified? Was M. Scott Peck just having fun with us when he wrote a book about his personal experience doing exorcism's?
 Anyway, since i had my first spiritual exp. 25 yrs. ago in my 20's,i have personally stayed clear of trying to sell my ideas or exp. to others and i will continue to be that way cause it resonates for me. As for Zaadz: my sense and hope is that the intention here is sincere. The fact is we live in a commercial society and that means that ideas about spirit will be bought and sold; as also will the vehicles for those ideas: Teachers. Ideally, one would hope that the inner most intention of a teachers heart is in harmony with it's source!

Re: LETS GET REAL (i.e. the excommunicated)

As per the law of capital economy, demand and supply network is the root cause and the deciding factor for the industrial, political, agricultural and personal stability of the state, family and private property. Even the slightest fluctuation in this network can generate enormous problems in the very baseline of economics.

Nowadays, by neglecting the productive forces, the heads of the capital economy are manipulating the stock markets to maintain an artificial balance on paper and are planning for outsourcing. Alas, a fictional balance on paper or outsourcing will not help the productive forces to grow.

The Stock market can function based on illusory hope, speculation and myth. But the demand and supply conditions of productivity and its space-time motion cannot function based on such illusory tools.

Only the productive forces can decide the fate of the economy, not the Stock market or outsourcing. Any speculation, which has disjointed from the economic realities, will only lead the world towards the ultimate economic crunch.

Without identifying the root cause of the economic slow down, the heads of the capital economy are digging their own grave through interest rate manipulation, outsourcing and illusory speculation.

The declining trend in the deeper roots of the capital economy began in 1991, when the massive real-estate crash occurred in New York City. After the great crash of 1991, there has been an explosive growth of Venture Capitalists.  For the first time in the history of humanity, the capital had started searching for an idea. But the capital can search for an idea only when it is in a defensive position.

Most business deals of the venture capitalists, across the world, have taken place based on hope, not on reality. The heedless sensation of cocksure attitude has entered the inner roots of economics, science, religion, industry and elsewhere like a dangerous virus. The unproductive sector has become more powerful than the productive sector and has started dominating the world economy. The former has attained highest name, fame, money and position and the productive sectors have been neglected like never before. People are being lured by the greedier offers and are dreaming of 'the Jack-pot.' All over the world, morality has completely lost its value in front of greedier offers of the newly emerging business world.

Capital will give birth to the fatally malignant economic virus, when it moves from the productive sector to the unproductive sector. At present, the capital has already completed this hazardous journey. For all of us there is no way left except to face the inevitable truth of socio-economic collapse. When every human being is running behind name, fame, money and position, how can one aspire for order in family, private property, state, education, politics or stock market?

In fact, all these developments are inevitable. The colossal upsurge of venture capitalists, IT Industries and outsourcing itself is an ominous signal regarding the approaching economic danger. The greedy people will not understand these deeper aspects of economics and its space-time connectivity. They will continue to live in their surreal world with illusive conclusions.

It is true that money has occupied the dominant position in the world economy. Nonetheless, it has failed to establish true happiness in human life. Money gives birth to all forms of evil sensations and thus dominates the inner roots of the human psyche. It has introduced the myths of passion, competition, envy, ego, and wicked behavior patterns in human psyche.

In addition, it is the worst means of exchange. After a Second World War, in Germany, at the time of recession when a basket of money was left unattended, a thief stole the basket and left the money on the ground. This is not a joke! At present, we are sitting in the same boat and moving towards the last phase of the capital economy. We are very near the predictable economic peril where the money cannot continue its journey as a means of exchange.

Only after comprehending these characteristics of money and its space-time connectivity, our ancient Sages warned the humanity about the imminent danger of The Judgement Day.

Dharma for Dollars

I'm just so appauled at how many of the members on this site are in the enlightenment industry!!!  That's so, so, so ANTITHETICAL to the process! 

the full quote from the Bible… Timothy 6:10 “For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.”

Re: Dharma for Dollars

Though I think everyone appreciates your enthusiasm MM, by accussing WIE and a lot of other sincere people that they are antithetical to the process of enlightening the world, IS antithetical to the process..namely your own process of enlightenment.

I believe that no one in WIE or I-I or Zaadz are for the “love of money”. I personally, know a lot of these individuals who are working for these “industries” and I am continually surprised on how much self-sacrifice they go through for the sake of the world. They have a very little profit motive, and whatever profits they do make, it goes right back into their work.

So in my perspective, when you accuse them of being in it for the money, and simply paying lip service to the enlightenment community, not only insults me, but ultimately your self. You obviously have little understanding of who they really are, beyond your own personal judgements.

Let us remember that the “love of money” is the root of all evil, not “money itself”. Secondly, there is nothing wrong with getting an equal return for what you put out. This what SUSTAINABILITY is all about. A person simply cannot survive nor have a significant impact in the world, if their work doesn't reach some point of sustainbility.

Re: LETS GET REAL (i.e. the excommunicated)

Why do two organizations need to become one in order to be a reflection of enlightened ideals?

You don't see enlightened beings merging physical bodies, why would you expect that seperate organizations do the same?

In fact, I think that because they both exist at the same time, and both reflect the same enlightened consciousness but with different perspectives, and insights, is by far a greater achievement and miracle, than if they just combined into one giant organization.

There is NO PROBLEM IN ENLIGHTENED IDENTITY. That would be against what the realization of enlightenment is in the first place: that fundamentally there is no problem,; identity being the expression of self-in-time.

Re: LETS GET REAL (i.e. the excommunicated)

Dear Alain,

Thanks for the light you bring to this discussion. There is a lot of truth in your words.

Namaste,

Nicole

Re: LETS GET REAL (i.e. the excommunicated)

Your perspectives are refreshing, Alain.

Nevertheless, we will continue to encounter these kinds of contradistinctions as long as there remain sensibilities that transpose aspects of non-material systems on the material.

~Jo

Re: LETS GET REAL

HI Folks!!,

As a long time subscriber to WIE's site, but definitely not a “true believer “, I have looked up and down this wie pod  for a discussion that doesn't start a bit like:—” Fans of …” or  “what do you like about….” or ” Discuss this latest papal bull from AC as though it were the Word of God…..” So this must be the place then. Nice to see you all –and yes I am actually responding to the original thread of this er “discussion” .

My feelings on the ENLIGHTENMENT INDUSTRY if you want to know ? You could check out my Blog – Good Luck !!

Sorry to interrupt whatever else is going on – carry on!!

Love and hugs

Kim

Re: LETS GET REAL

Now, we all know that enlightenment is only for people with I.Q.'s over 140………….lol

Re: LETS GET REAL

And how do you know that you do not have an IQ over 140?
(tv-test are invalid)

Re: LETS GET REAL

I'm glad you were laughing when you said that…. :-)

Re: LETS GET REAL

Thanks for that Kim.

It does seem hard to stay on hard subjects. And the confusion and suffering that comes from a teacher's abuse and exploitation of their students is one of the hardest.–especially where, as here, the teacher may seem to be otherwise inspiring, and to be doing some good things.

It is much easier to philosophize, theorize, self-analyze, politicize or do anything else than to look straight at the human cost and suffering caused by misguided , narcissistic (or worse) teachers.

It's not enough to just say, “this has been discussed before” and move on.
It's not enough to cite “levels and lines” (like Wilber does) and excuse severe emotional problems because of so-called spiritual realization.

I find it is important to really contemplate the facts, and open your heart. Then speak out, if you are called to. And pray for forgiveness of both yourself and the one who is doing harm.
A good place to start the process–the real process–of dealing with this difficult material (and, if I may dare to say so, even if I'm new here, I think the process has barely begun here) would be to read The Story of Caroline Franklyn.
It will break your heart open and help you see the subject in a new light.

Peace and light,
Kradha Kali Das

Servant of Ma

Re: LETS GET REAL

You have shocked me, but still i think that Andrew have good heart. Anyawy, please tell me something about you. Who are you and what is your social background?

Re: LETS GET REAL

Laura, please do not remove this article. Let us discuss on it. i am confident about Andrew.

Chandra

Re: LETS GET REAL

Mr. Kradha Kali Das.

You have just entered yesterday to this site and talking about Andrew. I know that Andrew have some defect, but he is not spiritual betrayer as per the link that you gave in your comment. Please tell me what exactly you want to tell? What is your social background? Are you working for intelligence? If so, remember one thing that you cannot stop the forthcoming wonder where all the spiritual people will join together for the first ground-breaking international conference that will be held in the battle field of Kurukshetra. If you are from intelligence tell your masters to touch me. Prove your capacity by touching me. It is a challenge for you. i can perform this war without weapon, but do not try the back door method like a commercial rat to generate contradiction. We have difference and soon we will sort it. If you are really good in heart continue the communication with the spirit of Truth. Andrew represents enlightened knowledge and the enlightened knowledge is limited in itself because it is an outcome of the past and past is the slave of the known and known is always limited. In fact, it is the known that is preventing us to master the unknown. Known itself is ego, but the enlightened ego loves to give touch to the selfish part of the human mind. Here, unknowingly Andrew also jumped into the pond of finite from the zone of infinite.

Chandra

Re: LETS GET REAL

Chandra,

Sorry to shock you–but that story of Caroline Franklyn is only one of many involving this teacher.

To be honest, I'm a little shocked at your request to Laura to not remove the article. The implication that she might remove an article  (if I understand you correctly) just because it brings up a controversial subject matter is very shocking to me. That would really stifle free discussion here and make such forums a sham–I find it hard to believe (assuming she can do so) that  she would do this or that it would be tolerated on Zaadz.

I'm going to have faith in the good-heartedness and sincerity of everyone involved here in wanting to really explore and communicate together, and seek truth–I won't worry about being disappeared or “excommunicated.”

I'm not sure, Chandra, but maybe you were adressing your question about “your social background” to me? If so:

I am a Western long-time seeker who has been with a number of teachers, mainly (but not only) in Eastern traditions. Some good, some mixed. Let's say I've been around the block and feel I have developed a pretty sensitive  and finely honed “abuse meter” at this point.

Currently, I am a practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism, and a devotee of the Great Mother (who is emptiness and no different than you and me) in all her forms. But I am also inspired by mystical Christianity, mystical Judaism, Advaita Vedanta and some shamanic traditions.

But this isn't really about me.

I don't want to offend anyone. But I think spiritual teachers need to keep to a high standard of ethics. I don't care how they rationalize it, if they are not expressing love and humility, they should step down or folks should be warned about them.

At least these issues should be deeply considered.

In Judaism, speaking of others'  faults is generally lashon hara, one of the worst ethical violations. But if it is done to warn others who may be harmed, it is not merely excusable–it is obligatory.

I pray that all spiritual teachers, and myself and every one of us, may find our heart of real compassion and true humility, by Her Grace.

Peace and light,

Krodhakali Das
Servent of Ma

Re: LETS GET REAL

Krodhakali Das,
    Thank you, thank you, thank you.
I am glad you brought this thread back to its focus, to make us re-face the difficult. If we came to Zaadz for its mission and because of our aspiration, we cannot ignore abuse and suffering in our midst. And the students of Andrew Cohen are in our midst, right here!
My heart goes out to them, I fear that they may not be free to speak their own minds, or share their own feelings, or doubts.
There is a huge connection between Zaadz and WIE, or the EnlightenNext group, many are involved deeply in both. And there is more, for example, I am part of the local Zangha of Greater Boston. And when they wanted to get together, the space that was offered was the EnlightenNext space. On the surface, thats great, and generous and it is a great space, I've gone to a few lectures there. But since i've learned about AC's behavior, I have not wanted to actively support, or be a part of anything thats “his”. I feel like Zaadz is almost being co-opted, like I can't get together with other zaadsters without being inside his influence. I think I'd be very uncomfortable meeting his students because now there is this huge elephant in the room, I'd be so concerned for them. This issue definitely takes away from the power of his message, makes it hollow.
The ironic part of this is that WIE does promote open discussion, while the teacher apparently does not.
And yes, it is possible for messages here to be deleted, edited out, or moved.
I also trust that in the name of free speech, and good intention, and decent fairness that this does not happen.
Those of us who speak out, we are not being rude or disrespectful in our manner. I do care deeply about the aspirations and idealism of the dedicated students of AC's who's hearts are in the right place, and who are rightfully inspired by his words, but harmed by his actions. Its hard to say that they know what they are getting into, when the words speak one way, and the actions, perhaps much later when they are very involved, speak another way.

One thing that AC does say, and I believe is true, is that enlightenment is an evolving process. So that there is no end state, of perfected enlightenment. May Andrew realize that he hasn't found such a state yet himself, be humbled, and look to always grow and refine his vision and action. May harmlessness and love guide him. May we all do so likewise.
Tamara

Re: LETS GET REAL

Hello Everyone,
and Tamara specifically,

just actually have a few minutes, and definitely wanted to respond… this is fascinating to read through, and of course we don't want to be silent or unresponsive, i am just terribly busy..

Tamara you said you were grateful that the thread was refocused “to make us re-face the difficult”
I am not sure what you mean when you say this? Can you please explain .. And then i think i can respond more fully…

“There is a huge connection between Zaadz and WIE, or the EnlightenNext group, many are involved deeply in both.”

you are completely right and i am probably the most obvious one… i work for Zaadz and have been a student of Andrew for over 10 years. The connection between both organizations, as far as i can see it, is that everyone involved in either is very interested in changing this world through changing themselves.. Zaadz brings these individuals together, and the individuals at EnlightenNext have dedicated their lives to the great and ever challenging endeavor of evolving ourselves, our level of consciousness, in order to give rise to new ways of relating and creating the future.. Yes, it is a noble task, and a bold thing to declare. But i wouldn't want to be doing anything else…There is no doubt that this life that i have chosen is not easy… and it is not for everyone. But, i think the connections that are being made through Zaadz and with EnlightenNext and WIE are fantastic, and allow conversations like this one to begin to happen, so we can all explore the truly uncharted territory and begin to make sense of this incredibly complex human life. :-)

Much more later… Sorry i don't have time for more now.. i could spend all day.. and in fact my entire life engaging with the extraordinary nature of what Andrew has begun to bring into consciousness through his own integrity and love for a new humanity… and in fact will be.

It's a great life. And it just get's better…

Appreciating the conversation..
Terri

Re: LETS GET REAL

Thank you, so much, Terri!  Yay, Terri!!

I am so glad you are helping us.  I know there is something really great that is happening either because of or in spite of AC, because it's bigger than him, and the value of this endeavor needs to be constantly emphasized!! 

The work is not negated, but it most definitely is geting bad press for what appears to be ligitimate reasons.  People need resolution over this.  People deserve it.  Esp. those who have suffered the most.  The public can wait til later, that's reasonable, but still, if this is kept too private, then the ripple effect ends up reverbing into some pretty nasty dimensions.  Karmically. 

I so hope you can help us, and by helping us here, help so many others who may be lurking.  I really want to see this conversation be conducted at a very high level so as to avoid the nasty little flame wars, such as those starting now towards the bottom (what an appropriate place!) of this thread, which only add to the contraction-clutter and contribute nothing of value. 

Thank you, again and I hope you can spare some serious time for this important issue.  In fact, you should be getting paid to do it as it would benefit them. 

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

Hi Terri,
   Glad to hear from you. But you are not really responding, its almost as if you aren't even aware of what this thread is about!

How can you ask; I am not sure what you mean when you say this? Can you please explain…when I said, I was grateful that the thread was refocused “to make us re-face the difficult”. And then you think you can respond more fully. 

This is disingenuous of you-you are buying time, being evasive and avoiding a real response. Instead you ply us with your glowing praise of your teacher, instead of refuting, or discussing the behaviors or charges made against him. I do hope that you are not in hot water yourself and this message is your way of back peddling till you get the official party line together.

But I actually believe you mean what you say, about your love and enthusiasm. Your idealism and motivation shine purely.:)

Making us re-face the difficult-is about getting real about the abuses from your teacher Andrew Cohen. (And others like him.) Its about the difficult, painful reality that someone you loved and trusted could hurt you. That his wisdom which is evident in so much of what he says and does, is not perfect, and he is fallible and is not right about everything he says and does. The difficulty is in finding your own strength and wisdom within, and cultivating your discernment of the heart. The difficulty is of finding real spiritual maturity. It is in admitting to yourself that a wisdom master would encourage your growth and autonomy, your inner wisdom, and would never try to control or cling on to you. Real love lets you free. Sets you free. And your real love would wish that for him, so that he could reach his potential as well.
Part of the difficulty is in loving imperfection, and dealing with the loss of our innocence about our ideals of “enlightenment” or some human perfection. Part of the difficulty is cultivating this compassion for our relative selves, not trying to rid ourselves of it hatefully. Part of the difficulty is in dealing with our crushing disillusionment, and then seeing through it to the real beauty of who and what we are and what we might become. Each difficulty is a learning opportunity, and hopefully this community can grow, can become more enlightened tough this painful process of facing this truth.
love,
Tamara

Re: LETS GET REAL

Dear Tamara,

thanks for your response… and no, i wasn't being evasive or buying time…. I have never responded to this kind of thing before, so i just wrote what was most authentic.. and of course there is more, and I personally find it incredibly difficult to respond to this in a blog environment.. but so be it, here we are and so i do think this is a good a place as any to start to stand in my own knowledge and depth with regard to what it takes to commit oneself to freedom, and also my own very fortunate and ongoing relationship with Andrew, who is committed to this as well. And in addition to that, i would also love to say that i know many of the people that have written on the other blog. So, that is the context for this response.

I have never had another teacher, nor have i ever looked… And i have been here for 10 years, and at times been completely elated by the freedom and spontaneous release of the authentic self, and other times, deeply identified with and indulging in ego. Now, what I have found and continue to find is that there couldn't be 2 greater forces in this universe to my knowledge, and or a bigger battle to wage in oneself in relationship to those forces. Andrew has ALWAYS said this is the most difficult and challenging endeavor there is… and so, i have always known that this wasn't a game, and that it takes everything.. and as i have matured in my relationship to my own commitment, i cannot tell you how ongoingly true i have found the enormity of this most subtle and exciting endeavor to be.

In the end, all i can say is that i have seen where we go when we don't want to face something that needs to be faced in order to evolve. And in my opinion, there couldn't be a darker place… and it is because of this, that i am incredibly grateful to be a student of Andrews, and with the spiritual friends i have here, because we are all learning what it really takes to commit in this way to the most glorious and challenging endeavor that i personally can imagine. And we don't stop at anything together to ensure that it is happening.. It is a holy and sacred life, that yes, has required some tough love… and thank god…

Re: LETS GET REAL

shoot… i pressed send and i am missing a lot of my post… I dont have time to finish it up…

I am very sorry.. i will write more later today… I am really glad this conversation has opened up.. 

Terri

Re: LETS GET REAL

Oh, it figures you'd end up with the glitch!  I HATE IT WHEN THAT HAPPENS! 

Thank you, Terri for coming to help.

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

Chandra,

I am curious, for the sake of discussion and exploration of this sensitive topic, what exactly about The Caroline Franklyn Story shocked you? How else did it make you feel?

What do you feel would be an appropriate response–an authentic response–to what it portrays?

With respect and concern,

Krodhakali Das
Serving Ma

Re: LETS GET REAL

Hello everyone,

I find it intriguing to notice this: if Andrew is as controlling, etc. as all this, why is this thread still going on and on, and there is no intervention from one of his followers?

Maybe each of us would experience more light and shed less heat if each kept the keen gaze of critical analysis and desire for change on the person who can be most profoundly changed by such inner work. That's right, oneself.

Even if Andrew is a monster - and I know nothing about him so it would be rash to take a stand one way or another - I am not going to change him by standing over here yelling about him to other people.

Namaste,

Nicole

Re: LETS GET REAL

Nicole, doesn't this bring us back to the question about enlightened action in the world? Do we act on whaat we perceive to be a wrong, or not? If yes, how?

To me, sitting quietly, not even raising questions is one way that allows things that could be brought to light, to remain in the shadows.
Tamara

Re: LETS GET REAL

I do believe both are required and that that is the whole point. 

In order to be most effective with an opponent, one must first rid oneself of all righteous reason for such opposition, and second all unconscious empowerment of such opposition.  This is only logical.  Otherwise it will just grow back more vigorously after it is cut down. 

Only after this should one attempt to cut down opposition. By then it will prolly be an easyer job with way less resistance and no damage to one's character.

Not doing this is the very crime we're accusing AC of commiting, no? 

In fact, isn't this the crime of the age and are not all power centers being gradually held accountable for it?

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

Dear Tamara,

The way forward is found when you ask, If yes, how?

Anyone who knows me off-zaadz knows that I am about as activist as a person can get. When I perceive a wrong, I wade in there.

However, I don't see discussing “being someone's back”, as it were, to be an effective or moral approach to dealing with a wrong. If Andrew is as bad as that, and you feel quite sure that the allegations are accurate, then you could always speak to him directly about it to get his side of the story.

Namaste,

Nicole

Re: LETS GET REAL

Nicole,
I don't believe this discussion is “behind his back”.  But I would like to openly invite the members here on this pod, at Zaadz, who live in the Ashram in Lenox, who study closely with him, how they feel about this. Do you feel free to talk about all this?
I do feel very strongly for your aspiration and devotion, and agree that the ideas espoused by Andrew are admirable. I am not anti-Andrew, I'm anti-abuse. I'm pro-honesty, openness and freedom.
I am shocked by these allegations, in reading that site, the fact that a member of the community (Craig Hamilton) responds to the allegtions and verifies them, this makes me feel they are real. The level of vitriole expressed saddens me as well.
sincerely,
Tamara

Re: LETS GET REAL

This was the letter from Craig that I thought I had linked you to, the last wasn't mch more than his admission to getting slapped and having “blood” smeared on his wall, apparently,  the means that AC uses to express his disapproval.
 This link is more scary that that though, in which he admits that AC had forced students to visit prostitutes.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Just glancing at this post I thought I might jump in here.

First, with respect to the feeling of being abused, that part of ourselves that Ken Wilber calls “the sensitive self” will always feel abused when things aren’t going it’s way or when it is pointed out to it that it is less than perfect or, heaven forbid, standing with its own actions in direct contradiction to its own stated values.

The other thing is with respect to the issue of forcing students to sleep with prostitutes. This particular point being brought up as an example of abuse has always stunned me for the whole story goes as follows (by the way, there was only one individual not many): the individual in question was a senior student of Andrew’s who was married and running centers in Europe as well as representing Andrew’s teaching to others, teachings that at their core stand for ethical integrity. This same individual, as it turned out, had been sleeping with prostitutes on a regular basis for years while married, a senior student and running centers - a position of such ethical corruption that it actually boggles the mind. Andrew’s response to this was to tell him to sleep with three prostitutes a day until he was over it (and he only followed through once). The really stunning thing about all this to me is that no one in the anti-Andrew blogging community seems to have any problem that this individual was carrying on like this for years but act as if some atrocity was committed by Andrew’s response, exposing this individual to STD dangers among other things. Keep in mind that this was an individual who had represented to Andrew that he wished to become, as Andrew often says, “a living expression of the opposite of everything that’s wrong with the world.”

How screwed up has our post-modern value system become in order to be able to handle such ethical gymnastics without so much as a hiccup. It’s actually quite pathetic.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Mike said,

The other thing is with respect to the issue of forcing students to sleep with prostitutes….(by the way, there was only one individual not many) etc.

Mike, your version of that story, although it confirms Andrew sent a student to prostitutes, is very different than the one I've seen elsewhere. I wonder how accurate it is. The other version is supposed to be directly sourced. Is yours? 

Could you tell me your source for your version? Was it an eyewitness or participant in the event? Were you there for any part of the events?

It's really karmically bad to misrepresent facts about others so I hope you are being very careful about this. And things have a way of being disseminated endlessly on the Internet–creating endless bad karma if they are false! So I hope you'll let us know where and from who you got your version and any other indication you have that it is really reliable.

Re: LETS GET REAL

“But I would like to openly invite the members here on this pod, at Zaadz, who live in the Ashram in Lenox, who study closely with him, how they feel about this. Do you feel free to talk about all this?”

I agree.  I have been patiently waiting for any of them to respond with something like a conversation.  I don't wanna engage at the level of the problem, however.  I would like to see something different happen here. 

Still waiting.

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

Whitewave – I think your invitation for current students living at the Lenox ashram to comment and share their views about all this is good and I'd like to welcome that too. I saw on that blog that there had been an open invitation for Andrew Cohen to respond directly about the stories of abuse, but doesn't look like he did.

and FYI there's more details about the WIE editor Hamilton leaving Cohen in some of the comments to another article here.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Dear Scott,

Yes, I'm aware that there are other invitations out there.  There are prolly plenty.  But I've also noticed that I haven't seen one discussion of this topic that is not just a hive of abuser-bashing, victim-identity-fortifying groupthink.  If people think the solution to one extreme is to take the other extreme, then aparently they haven't hit bottom in their addiction to duality.  And since all the world's problems haven't been solved yet using this method, and the whole point of visiting non-duality is to tap into that infinite resource of solution that lies above the level of the problems we have here…   I'm left wondering what these people were trying to buy from AC in the first place if it wasn't enlightenment.

???

I want to see this problem dealt with and solved as much as anyone, but I recognize that it's not going to be solved by doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

BTW,

It was Tamara's invitation.  I tried to make it look like a quote, but I forgot to put it in italics.  Now, it's too late.  Sorry, T.

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

Tamara…hey, very interesting post. Also highly ironic is that i saw on that site they also have a story about how months after he wrote that response Craig Hamilton himself seemed to find it necessary to run away from the ashram in Lenox.  (WIE Editor Leaves)

Re: LETS GET REAL

Dear Tamara,

After all this posting, Andrew himself has not joined the conversation to speak for himself, so in spite of the best intentions which I believe the participants of it may have, it's not directly with him.

Again, hearing from someone in his community is not hearing from him.

Let me give you a for instance. I've had two poison pen letters written about me and circulated within my church. It was extremely likely that the persons who wrote them were members of the church community or former members. If you sought the truth about me based on those letters, you hopefully would have nothing further to do with me, because the people described therein were the most disgusting, selfish, hard-hearted and ungrateful people you could imagine.

So I have come painfully to learn the necessity of speaking directly.

Also, in my family, my mother is very fond of triangulation. She has now given up trying to call me to discuss someone else because I invariably say, “If you're that upset, talk to her and work it out. Please don't talk to me about someone else”.

Namaste,

Nicole

Re: LETS GET REAL

I think this is an important and necessary discussion and very different from talking “behind someone's back.” While I agree that speaking personally with the person involved is best in a personal conflict, the charges of abuse and exploitation of students by Andrew Cohen is very different–this is a public matter, made about a person who holds himself out as a public figure, a guru, a spiritual leader and an exemplar of “evolutionary enlightenment.” Because of this, we, the public, have a right to know about these charges and their truth or falsity. It is a matter of public concern, especially to people who might be considering involvement with Andrew Cohen's teaching or organization in any way.

In fact, when dealing with a charsimatic personality, direct confrontation might be misadvised. It would be better to first observe, investigate and find out the facts before risking getting drawn in by charisma or shaktipat or whatever.

Serious charges have been publicly made–of physical abuse of students at Andrew's bequest, of financial exploitation, even of Andrew ordering a student to visit prostitutes against his will, of humiliation techniques, and other things. And many of these charges have been made by named individuals who have put their own names and reputations (and even possible lawsuit liability) on the line in the interest of warning and informing the public.

Examples include former WIE editor Susan Bridle (“A Legacy of Scorched Earth”), former WIE editor Hal Blacker's articles (Breaking the Code of Silence), and former European community leader Stas's article, Letter from a Senior Student,  about his own personal and very traumatic experiences. These articles, and others like them, are far beyond “mere rumor”–they deserve careful consideration and response.

As pointed out by Tamara, there were some public responses from prominent members of WIE and Andrew's community. But none of them contested any of the factual charges–if anything they confirmed them. These responses included 4 postings to the What Enlightenemnt??! blog by former WIE editor in chief Craig Hamilton (and here, among others); a letter from current WIE editor and Zaadz member Carter Phipps (here); and one from active community member and Zaadz member Brad Roth (somewhere, I can't find at the moment). But all of these responses tended to confirm the facts stated by critics, but tried to explain them in an “ends justifies means” kind of way.

If anyone who knows the facts can deny the charges made, it would be good to hear from them.

I do admire WIE for making this uncensored forum available for discussion. I think the good can be appreciated in the people and the organization and the magazine even if there is questioning of the teacher and some of his methods.

Finally, while I agree that “victimization” stances and anger may not be the wisest or best responses, I think you have to give some leeway and some compassion to people who have been traumatized. I wouldn't be so quick to condemn them. They may need to vent some anger before they can move on. If you have ever been on the wrong end of abuse by a spiritual teacher, I think you'd appreciate how painful and confusing recovering from it can be (including –maybe most of all!–acknowledging, ultimately, your own role in playing into the unhealthy relationship).

Most important though is knowing everything you can about any teacher you might at all consider getting involved with.

With love and respect,

Krodhakali Das
Serving Ma

Re: LETS GET REAL

“While I agree that speaking personally with the person involved is best in a personal conflict, the charges of abuse and exploitation of students by Andrew Cohen is very different–this is a public matter, made about a person who holds himself out as a public figure, a guru, a spiritual leader and an exemplar of “evolutionary enlightenment.” Because of this, we, the public, have a right to know about these charges and their truth or falsity. It is a matter of public concern, especially to people who might be considering involvement with Andrew Cohen's teaching or organization in any way.”

Absolutely right!  I forget this sometimes, but you're absolutely right.  My friend, Bill, explained this to me about another teacher that I admired and who fell from grace.  There is a public wrong because there is no shared value.  Clearly the burden is on him and his students to present their reasoning, not on a bewildered and frightened public. 

“If anyone who knows the facts can deny the charges made, it would be good to hear from them.”

Have there been formal charges placed against him?  If not, I would avoid using that terminology.  We are entitled to know and have an explanation, but we are not the court, we are not “charging” him and this is not a legal situation, yet.  If so, then I don't remember hearing about the courts.  Has he been taken to court?  Who did this?  When?  What happened?

Regardless, the accusations made were never denied.  They happened!  There is no dispute.  We're not missing any kind of acknowledgment from them about that.  What we're missing is civil and enlightened explanation or justification or reason or any other kind of help in reconciling these two irreconcilable things about him.  All we've gotten so far is spiteful polemic and avoidance.  Not impressive.

“I do admire WIE for making this uncensored forum available for discussion. I think the good can be appreciated in the people and the organization and the magazine even if there is questioning of the teacher and some of his methods.”

I think the only way to express true Non-dual value is if we can question all sides and embrace all of the passion and anguish of both sides. 

“Finally, while I agree that “victimization” stances and anger may not be the wisest or best responses, I think you have to give some leeway and some compassion to people who have been traumatized.”

Same again.  There is no either/or here.  It's only all!  Only if and when we can fully experience all the hurt of the victim, and all the passionate justification of the abuser can we really be ready to solve this problem.  There is no balance.  There is no trade-off.  There is no shrinking away from one in order to make room for the other.  There is only all.  I am certain that this is where the solution is. 

“If you have ever been on the wrong end of abuse by a spiritual teacher, I think you'd appreciate how painful and confusing recovering from it can be (including –maybe most of all!–acknowledging, ultimately, your own role in playing into the unhealthy relationship).”

Nothing could be more true.

“Most important though is knowing everything you can about any teacher you might at all consider getting involved with.”

Yuppers.  Thanks for this. 

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

I’m getting the sense that not responding is being interpreted as either admittance of guilt or of being ‘controlled’ so I feel compelled to tell my side of the story. I have been a student of Andrew for 14 years. I became a student because I longed for a no-nonsense spiritual guide. Yes I found that! The thing is that this path is not about devotion to some notion of a saintly guru, it is not a path of unconditional love, self affirmation, self help or therapy … nor is it some dry academic study about the philosophy of enlightenment. It is REAL living enlightenment between active and engaged fellow practitioners, and it requires serious contemplation about the implications of committing oneself to such a path. At the age of 19 when I met Andrew I was already sick of what was then called New Age spirituality, and I personally found it to be superficial and insincere. I was interested in results “I wanted to be free no matter what” and in that I had found my teacher. Have no illusion if you become a student of Andrew Cohen it means you have to be serious about real change. There are no babes-in-the-wood here, it takes many years of demonstrable understanding and commitment to become a student of Andrew … And the trouble starts when (as it did for myself like several others) you refuse to be loyal to your OWN desire for real change. Obviously in an environment like this with very close dharma companions and an uncompromising teacher, you can expect as I did, conflict.

Imagine you are a platoon of highley trained soldiers, tight as brothers, absolutely reliant on one another for sanity and for the success of the mission, and one of your brothers starts flipping out and saying they’re not going to fight and we’re all going to die … shock horror! YES I would have no compunction to do whatever I had to in order to wake him up to himself. You may not like this, it may hurt the sensitive self-sense to even consider imposing ones will on another (even for a higher cause) — But I’m sure many evolved human beings on this planet would agree with me — sometimes ‘tough love’ is true compassion.

I hope this sheds some light on the discussion.

Will

Re: LETS GET REAL

I admire your conviction and dedicatin and aspiration, Will. Those of us on a serious spiritual path have an intensity of motivation like yours.

Your language, comparing this process to a battle, that alone speaks to the core of the problem here. It is not a leading edge philosophy here, its old school, reactionary fundamentalism, good vs. evil dualism. Is there any part of you that is not divine? Or of divine purpose or intention? Ego serves a purpose. Squashing the ego is akin to the extremist renunciates of the Buddha's era who tried to ascend through starving and denouncing the physical reality of their bodies. We have seen through that approach, and have a more sensible attitude toward the physical body, but we still seek to shed the skin of ego. We reify it, making it more than it is through these extreme approaches. Its just a thought form, one that we cling to for multiple reasons, one that prevents us from opening up to a wider vision, a more inclusive perspective. It is the heart that allows that openness and inclusivity.

To my perspective, the ends never justify the means, it corrupts the roots of the process if there is a wrong committed in pursuit of anything no matter how lofty. The spirit of the ends has to permeate the means -the whole way. In fact, the spirit of dualistic, oppositional, fear and pain and shame based path cannot lead to a real enlightenment, an acceptance and seeing of all, because it never allows that All. Its always partial.

Love is the path, it is the expression of enlightenment. What you call “tough love” most of us call abuse, and it is the expression of a serious lack of apprehension of the unitive nature of reality. In fact shaming people, slapping them on the face, paining “guru's blood” on their walls, let alone the psychological terror of shunning people, or verbal berrating, that is bound to put up psychological barriers, to build up the “skin” of ego, which is one of its main functions, to protect us from pain and fear. It is only love and compassion for others pain that melts this barrier, there is no breaking it, only melting, dissolving into the lighted openness. When we are in psychological pain, we can be sure we are sitting securely inside the walls of our little self.

It is my experience though, that spirit itself provides the fire, the edge. There comes a point of no turning back, the pain increases if moving forward is avoided. Change happens -its one of those revelations of the Buddha, of impermanence. We feel pain if we try to avoid that change which is Self impelled. IMHO no teacher needs to provide any stick. A carrot, maybe, but life, spirit, karma, provides the stick, there's enough pain. Just facing our shit is painful enough, isn't it? Why make us hurt more? Why not compassion for this difficult passage? And when someone is flipping out, or going through a difficult time, it may be that a major shift is happening, why not allow space for it, let them really examine it? Why not just be there for them, modeling strengthh and compassion and wisdom? Why punish or abuse them for the fire of their passage? The tantric, or transformational way is to milk those periods for the wealth of wisdom they contain, not to repress or deny them.

Again it is really great to have this forum. It is clear that even in light of the abuses people are admitting occurr, call it “tough love” or what ever, that there is something valuable being gained as well. Just be aware that you may evolve through this process to a point where you don't need or want this style of process. That you may grow past the stage of the path that “needs” this. That there is a different, more open, accepting, compassionate style of teacher. (Though this type might be low profile, and not have a glossy magazine!)

Re: LETS GET REAL

Well said, Tamara, well said.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Just some more thoughts, woke up with this perspective this morning. 

If your husband or wife or lover were to slap you, or shame you or verbally berate you, would you consider that a form of evolved loving expression?

Does violence ever wake up anyone? 

Re: LETS GET REAL

Ehm, If he or she hadn't had a very good reason to do so. ( an not selfish one)
Then I wouldn't want to call it love at all.

Re: LETS GET REAL

I can only speak for myself, Tamara, but when anyone like that has mistreated me, over the past few years when I have learned to assert myself, I stand up for myself, draw my boundaries clearly, and have an open and frank discussion about what must change.

Namaste,

NIcole

Re: LETS GET REAL

Well call me old school but I don’t think it is … obviously its for you to make up your own mind. Also I’m not advocating this for everyone. For myself I find this contemplation right at the very edge of what it means to be a responsible, evolving, human being. We’re in an interesting predicament as we recognize the reality that we are creating the future, not anything or anyone outside of ourselves. As we begin to wake up we start to see that part of us wants to evolve and part of us definitely does not ( I think we’re together on this) … I don’t really know any other way to say it but YES we have a conflict here … Because you have two value systems co-existing within one conscious human being. Letting everything be as it is is only half of the picture here (an thats significant)… the other part is a heroic effort to choose for the part of you that wants to evolve beyond the separate self and all the fears and desires associated with that. And if you make the choice to evolve your operating system to one beyond ego, and then for some reason everything inside you wants to start back-peddling … you have to make all the more effort. And when you and your dharma companions are that tight you experience a kind of soul unity and living non-duality (AC on this), so someone this tight pulling back is like you pulling back from your own self. The phrase “do unto them as they would have done to you” takes on a whole other meaning. Because what you are unified in is the sincere and profoundly positive desire to become the future and forge new pathways for human consciousness … pulling back from this is felt as a very real human rip-off … . sounds kind of blue and punative I know but hey I cant help that and I dont think it is. Here are few links hopefully pointing to the “Un-old-schoolness” of what I’m speaking about.

Dr. Beatrice Bruteau

Ken Wilber & AC

Ken Wilber & AC

Re: LETS GET REAL

This is all really interesting. I'm so glad this discussion is happening. We really are “getting real” here and I think it's brave and wonderful of Andrew's community members to help us do this.

Will and Terry, your enthusiasm for Andrew and his community is obvious. Putting aside for a moment whether the kind of “spritual boot camp” model that Will seems to be describing really works or makes sense, I want to understand if I am hearing Will and Terry correctly. Please correct me if I'm wrong, because I think “the devil is in the details” so to speak and it's very important to understand exactly what we're talking about here.

What I am hearing–and again please correct me if this is mistaken–is that Will and Terry are acknowledging that the controversial things reported about Andrew's and his community's methods with students that we've read about on the Internet (like in the What Enlightenment??! blog) are true, but they are justified because they are evolutionary and done out of love. Is that correct?

Because it sounds like you are saying, Will and Terry, that Andrew has, for example, ordered students to slap and rough up other students; he did have women prostrate repeatedly in a freezing cold lake in winter to the point that one student passed out and had to be rescued; he had senior students lure a former student into a basement and pour buckets of paint over her head; he set up an elaborate scenario where a student was woken up late at night and taken to another student who is a doctor  where he was told he was going to have his finger cut off for not following through on a writing project; he ordered a student to visit prostitutes against his will;  and he had students spend hours in a basement with walls painted red to depict “the guru's blood,” contemplating caricatures drawn on the walls showing students performing sexually predatory acts  (these are some of the things extensively reported). But your feeling is that these things were necessary in the battle against ego.

I'm really curious–are these kinds of things still going on? For example, is Andrew still having students slap other students as a teaching method? If not, when did he stop doing this, and why? Is he still using the “guru's blood” painted basement at Fox Hollow, and if not, when did that stop and why?

Re: LETS GET REAL

Will,

Thank you too for attempting to take some responsibility here.  I would strongly urge you to maintain the stance that this is what is best for you, and maybe not for everyone.  Keep it in the realm of “I” and try to avoid the use of the word “you” when speaking of these supposed absolute truths.  You moved from “I” to “we/us” to “you” all in one paragraph.  Such as:

“Because you have two value systems co-existing within one conscious human being. Letting everything be as it is is only half of the picture here (an thats significant)… the other part is a heroic effort to choose for the part of you that wants to evolve beyond the separate self and all the fears and desires associated with that. And if you make the choice to evolve your operating system to one beyond ego, and then for some reason everything inside you wants to start back-peddling …”

I have not found this to be true for me.  And I'm okay with that.  I am going to be okay with you needing what you need to.  I'm not going to insist that you be like me.  My path is better suited for my kinds of barriers.  They might not work for you.  Totally legitimate.  Like I asked Terri, please don't ass-u-me that what is true for your ego is true of mine. 

And this would be the begining of a solution for this problem.  It still may be true that the people who fled in horror have too much inertia.  I can accept that.  But how can we be sure that's really what it is?  What if..???

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

Hello WW,
 
Sorry didn’t mean to speak for anyone else (I guess we English have a tendency to speak as the royal we :) ). To be clear this is definitely not the only path, in fact we explore a wide variety of remarkable traditions and contemporary approaches for spiritual development in our magazine…it’s one of the reasons I love my job!  :)
 
Best,

Will

Re: LETS GET REAL

Hi All. just back rejoining this thread after being away for a bit. I think my basic concern here is that we don't get awed and overwhelmed with the general positive intent and enthusiasm expressed by Teri and Will for instance – as great and attractive and important as that  is for the business of self-transcendence. I think some real specifics need to be addressed, and these specifics are about the teacher, Andrew's actions intended to awaken students. We can get into dangerous ground if it's all seen across the board as helpful in killing the ego or such. How do we know if extreme stuff like this hasn't actually hurt and traumatized people rather than helped them. If students have to leave to survive and heal, then what's really going on. Did this stuff really happen? Is it still going on with Andrew and his students? I think Krotokali das has brought the real questions here, but i guess we're all waiting for the specific reponses from those on the “inside”.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Scott,

“I think my basic concern here is that we don't get awed and overwhelmed with the general positive intent and enthusiasm expressed by Teri and Will for instance – as great and attractive and important as that  is for the business of self-transcendence.”

Once again, who is concerned?

Are you able to identify and objectify that person that is concerned as only one of many seperate selves which are contained within you?  If not, then it is unlikely that you will be able to model for them how to include everything that's true regardless of agenda.  Do you see my point?

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

Scott,

Just in case you think I'm trying to deflect:

Abuse is probably true.  But so is egoic innertia.  Both can, in fact, be infinitely true.  That would be the non-dual and larger True Truth.  If one can only exist at the expense of the other, then we're not there yet.  NEITHER SIDE!  But if we can get to the place where we don't have to find a fine line or balance or make room or leeway, but can instead include all of it that is true, then we're alot closer to the goal. 

Do you see?

To the other side of the argument, I would say the inverse:

Egoic innertia is probably true.  But so is abuse.  Etc.

Neither side will feel heard, and they will each fortify their positions and both continue to exclude truth and value unless we find this higher ground.  There is no other way.

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

“we explore a wide variety of remarkable traditions and contemporary approaches for spiritual development in our magazine”

Will,

Righto! 

And that's why I love the magazine and why these horror stories are so dissonant and difficult to reconcile.  In the mag, I see that there are other paths that are considered and discussed openly.  And there seems to be a sense of those paths being represented as paths and not totally identified with like they are the only way.  I love that!  It's very different than alot of other “spiritual” publications.  Usually, there's so much subjective assuming going on that I find myself excluded not because I'm being “resistant” but because they are making such an effort to keep their boundaries up around their method that they cannot include other things which are also true for me.  Much of what I hear about AC's idea of Evolutionary Enlightenment is so right on and resonant with and true for me that I want to include it as part of my vision.  But I also want to be able to include all these other things too that work for me and help me on my way.  And so I want to be included as “an interested and valued admirer” - not shut out as “a coward” or “wannabe”. 

Again, those too are egoic identifications themselves!  And they are what is driving me in the right direction so for me, those are worth feeding for now.  Eventually, they too will have to be dropped.  And drop them I will - and do, when I move out of that place of smaller Truth and into the place of Larger Truth.  I pop in and out.  Dropping down to leverage things down here, popping up to keep perspective.

So, since we're engaging the world of smaller truth here - inevitable, since this is a public forum and even AC's students live and interact within the world at large - it behooves us to consider shared value to some degree.  We don't have to be fully identified with it, but we really do have to consider it as having it's say.  Otherwise his dream of an enlightened morality cannot hold water. 

I think I grok why AC and company needs to not fully identify with the values that say: these-people-are-purely-innocent-victims-of-abuse.  Fully identifying with it would necessitate a halting of the Jihad which for some is incredibly effective and helpful.  You guys need to have all the tools at your disposal.  That's only fair.  It's a dirty job, but perhaps somebody's gotta do it.

So, would it be true that AC can and does also engage people on a less wartime kind of way?  Can he identify those who don't need to do it that way, and engage them in a way that is more effective for them?  Or is he really a specialist, as KW seems to have implied?  If so, does that mean he is incapable of working as a healer-type or is it just that he prefers this method or…

…is he so firmly and fully identified with the values that say: these-people-are-purely-their-own-worst-enemies-and-are-abusing-themselves?

Perhaps this is the critical question.

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

Right on Ww! I totally agree! I’m running out the door and don’t have time to write more … but will soon!

All the best,

Will

Re: LETS GET REAL

“Right on Ww! I totally agree! I’m running out the door and don’t have time to write more … but will soon!”

WOOT!  Common ground!  I'd throw a party, but I'm so exhausted from this work and my Shrink appointment earlier today that I have to pass out.

Blessings to you and I'll read ya later.

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

just falling in line at the tail of this thread. I feel that WW's presentation is clear, neutral and inclusive. I'm in agreement that there are many teachers I may choose to learn from. Thanks Will for being open. I'm hungry - - - must eat - - -
peace and love - - - - - - - - - l

Re: LETS GET REAL

Will,
    I read the link on AC's words on non-duality that you provided;

For both autonomy and communion to exist simultaneously is a newly emerging potential in consciousness. Usually, when an individual experiences powerful autonomy, it is almost always at the expense of communion with others. And in order to experience profound communion, usually the individuals involved have to sacrifice their autonomy. But in Evolutionary Enlightenment, a dynamic field is created where the one and the many are literally the same and yet simultaneously remain distinct and different. It is a new and evolving expression of nonduality in which the thrill of autonomy and the bliss of communion merge into one singular, unified state of consciousness.

Bit when one reads the blogs from ex-students, this is definietly not the reality they are experiencing! What they are expressing is more of the loss of autonomy in the process of learning communion in the group with Andrew. …in order to experience profound communion, usually the individuals involved have to sacrifice their autonomy. 

Iin order to experience profound autonomy, you cannot live in fear that your words or actions (or the fact of your sex-with whatever conditioning you might have been exposed to) will be judged and punished.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Will,

I recognize this.  It's Jihad. 

Which, I think, has it's place.  Until you “break on through to the other side”, the most directly effective use of duality is to use it to support a Good War against Evil.  The “Greater Jihad”, though this is disputed within the ranks of believers, is the inner war, while the outter war is the “Lesser Jihad”.  Clearly, AC is working to help people win this inner war.  This is a noble task.

Ultimately, the barier is breached and the war is over - right?  Isn't that the goal?  I'm going to assume it is, because, well….  anything else would conflict with everything I've heard about enlightenment.  So, it must be true that all this struggling is an “illusion” - right?  How could it logically be any different?  I recognize that it may be a helpful illusion for a while, but that it is an illusion nevertheless.  I still haven't seen any acknowledgment on this point - as Tamara keeps driving home. 

Is this because it is important for you to maintain this illusion for now so you can get the most out of this path?  Would acknowledging this point break the spell and jinx your work?  I realize that there may be no way to answer this question without the same effect…   so I'm wondering is there is some other way to talk about it…

One thing I see in your post is not-so-subtle insults towards those who follow a different path.  Paths such as:

“devotion to some notion of a saintly guru, it is not a path of unconditional love, self affirmation, self help or therapy … nor is it some dry academic study about the philosophy of enlightenment”

etc.  Clearly, those things are anathema!  But one of the things about polemic like this is that it shrinks and contracts the view of the opposition in order to make it more easily objectified - “straw men”.  In doing so, it necessarily refuses to acknowledge some truth.  As KW would put it - nobody is wrong about everything.  People who follow other paths cannot all be less enlightened than AC's students?  Can they? 

I agree, there is alot of money to be had and warm-fuzzies to be shared perpetuating contracted and illusory ego identification with the I'm-so-spiritual-because-I-love-and-don't-hate kind of persona within the New Age and surrounding “spiritual” and healing community.  But do you really believe this is the only path that can effectively move people beyond that problem?  Your post makes it sound like you do.  Perhaps it would break the spell to admit that it is not true, and you must maintain this illusion until you're done with your process.  If this is so, then I'm sorry.  you must be in quite a bind.  I wonder if there is some way to bridge this gap.. 

It seems that this Jihad necessarily dismisses the posibility that someone might get better results using other techniques.  Like a race-horse wearing blinders, all you can see is the finish line.  You don't want to be distracted by the horse to your left who went down and took 4 more down with him.  Usefull, in a way…  But costly.  What if someone went into this work with AC with the understanding that this was the right path for them, and then realized half way through that another path would get them there more effectively?  People make mistakes.  Other paths can be effective for different people.  How can such a person make this determination and transition smoothly?  Is there a right way to do it, or are all attempts to transition out necessarily the result of betraying one's own commitment to their own enlightenment?  Wouldn't it be better to let them go and cut the losses?  But I see that it might bruise morale if these people were to be let go with anything but a royal hazing.  Such are the trappings of warfare. 

Are the risks of this kind of dynamic openly discussed there?  I mean, really explained - that the illusion must be maintained, like a drama on a stage, until the necessary breakthrough has occured, and that real flesh and blood will be sacrificed to support this illusion?  Or would that be breaking the spell?  How informed can people really be in order to make an intelligent decision about all this?  It would seem to me that seduction is necessary to enlist, not information.  Seduction works by subtly bypassing the free-will of the seduced, because the free-will is considered a hinderance to what that person really wants out of life. 

How is that paradigm getting the world going in a better direction anymore?  How can this be resolved without spilling blood and ruining lives?

It seems to me that only wealthy and safe Westerners would be able to psychologically afford to make a choice to work with someone like AC.  We are the ones “playing” war games, while the rest of the world is actually living through it for real.  Could it be that this is one of the most clear examples of our decadence?  That we would pay large sums of money - clearly only those with ALOT of disposable income can afford to do this - to be fooled and slapped around like this for the sake of a payoff that has nothing to do with our personal survival?  Yes, I see that there might be a larger concern down the road - the world benefitting from what happens after we cross the finish line - but wow!  Is this what it takes to learn how to care about someone besides ourselves?  If war really is the answer, then what kind of message is this sending to militant Islamic or Christian fundamentalists?  Not the smart ones who can tell the difference between the Greater and the Lesser Jihad - but the far more numerous unevolved ones who still don't get it?  If you guys aren't gonna tell them that duality and warfare isn't the answer, then who is left to tell them?

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

“What do you feel would be an appropriate response–an authentic response–to what it portrays?”

This is an excellent question.

I wish I were further along in this process, so I would have the instinct instead of just trying to guess - but at this point, all I can do is guess.  I 'spect that the tone that is set inside the community is simply too highly controlled to allow what I and Tamara and many others believe is a more truly non-dualistic response to emerge from within.  I hope I'm wrong.  I hope there is a way to break this spell - somehow make itunnecessary, remove the charge.  But I ' spect there is no way to do this yet.  Clearly, a power struggle plays right into the hands of the problem.  There should be another way.

I'm so glad I'm not one of his students.

But it seems to me that the only people who would legitimately have the authority to bear the solution would be the ones who have been hurt the most.  If they could get to a place of health and love that could model for him a complete lack of need for either the defense of or the attack of what is a more accurate definition of ego while at the same time reporting back to him their clear observation of his own agitation and turmoil, I think that would be the place of true “power”.  Being so deeply wedged into the identity of the Victim cannot be the place of the most advantage.  It just can't.  This should be obvious.

But there is a place - this I do know from experience - where you completely lose the eligibility to be the hook for the projection of “The Bad Student”.  It's not something you can pump yourself or someone else up to believe.  No amount of positive affirmations can do this work.  All that stuff only strengthens the projection and the dissonance between the truth and the lie.  Only Shadow work can accomplish this kind of internal disarmament.

Since Shadow Work is apparently not being used by this community (or maybe just not successfully), his students cannot truly lose their attatchment to favored ego identifications.  Ascent is good for a static photograph of “not that”, but trying to force this “reality” onto a realm or context where “that” is a factor is not practical, doable or desireable.  If Brahman is truly Atman, where is the struggle?  Part of the reason people's concepts of God contain omnipotence is to express this truth.  How can you raise a finger or even a thought in opposition to God?  It's absurd.  The Psalms in the Bible grok this concept, tho they may communicate it in an archaic form.

Once all internal dualities are accepted and integrated into the necessary-for-living-in-this-world kind of ego or soul, then all reasons to deny or defend any accusation at all die on the vine.  All can be used or abandoned at will.  There is no fatal attraction or attatchment.

—oOo—

“THE WAR IS OVER!!  THE WAR IS OVER!!  THE MACHINES, THEY'RE GONE!  IT'S OVER!!  THE WAR IS OVER!!”
~The Kid

Re: LETS GET REAL

Whitrwave, it seems that you are also an ugly spiritual person. Mind your tongue! How many books you written like Andrew's ‘The Alchemist'? If you do not have inner energy to write such books go and hit your head on the wall. So that at least we can help the coming generations to come out from this most grievous blaming character.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Chandra,
What are you even talking about? 

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

HI Everyone,

I keep picking up parts of this thread. Not sure how to go about responding to the whole thing… again this is very new…

So Whitewave, i appreciate your thoughtful posts… they demand that i think about my own experince and bring it into consciousness… 

I can say in real time, and in an environment where the demand that we all have on ourselves and eachother is for real transformation, and the sooner the better, the process you are describing just hasn't worked… Not for me or for us anyway… You see, the force of enertia is very storng, and we are so individualted at this point in our evolution, along with being for the most part extremely immature in a spiritual way… and so, the give time to do the shadow work so far hasn't really lead to many  results.. and I have to say that i am more interested in the results then how they were accomplished..

In terms of my own devlopement, it has taken quite alot to even get to the point on an emotional level where i was interested in changing no matter what it was going to take… and this is something fairly new… There may be some out there who already have the emotional and psychologilcal willingess to engage in one of the most challenging aspects of transofrmaion, which is when under enormous pressure, where does one go? But i wasn't one of them. And so what does one do when under pressure… retreat into the small self and start fighting against anything higher, even on an unconcisiouns level? or does one rise up and walk forward in the midst of the ultimate fear and self concern, and instead do the right thing?

This may sound straight forward, but in my experince it is anything but that… and so, this is the true test of where someone really stands in relationship to freedom.. And there is nothing i have ever found that is more difficult then this moment…

And so, because when your on the spiritual path, and the world is incredibly complex, and we are all extremely narsissitic, sometimes you don't just rise up and find perspective, emotinal conviction and clarity at the times when you are the most challenged.. and what i have found is that when you balk in these moments… you create real Karma, and that Karma sets a chain of destruction out in the world… and the longer you stay there the harder it becomes to fight through, and the more everyone suffers… truly this is what happens. i have seen many times… And so, at this point, if you were to ask me what to do, whether it was with myself or one of my commited spiritual friends… i would answer… Whatever it takes….

I think maybe, as evolution occurs, (and that's why the faster the better), individuals will evolve in their capacity to resond when under enormous pressure… that is the whole point! And i am seeing in myself and many of my peers this actually occuring…. And the conclusion that i can draw from seeing this real-live evoltuion, truly beautiful and dignified maturity begin to flower in and between us…The confidence, strength and commitement to this life with a capital L just gorws.. it is a beautiful endeavor… and i hope this repsonds to some of this thread if not your post directly….

warm regards,
Terri

Re: LETS GET REAL

Terri,

EXCELLENT ANSWER!  Fantastic! 

Yes, I see it now.  You are, in effect, taking some responsibility for being part of the problem here.  It is as I suspected.  Those with power issues will gravitate towards AC and either they will make it or they will break, but it may very well be that no other path would be effective for them. 

“the force of enertia is very storng, and we are so individualted at
this point in our evolution, along with being for the most part
extremely immature in a spiritual way…”

Do you mean individualitsic or individuated?  Those are two different things.  

I would ask you to please, please, please not develop an arrogant attitude towards the paths of others so that the lesser skilled student brutalizes others for the sake of AC's gospel.   I understand your progression of Karma REALLY WELL.  But the arrogant attitude can also end up being a contracted separation which creates Karma. 

So, what I would like to see is this:

If Terri is willing to take some responsibility for the use of this method, are those who have “escaped” also willing?  My questioning has gone equally to them from the beginning.  Can they proove their ability to transcend the seperate-self sense outside of AC's community?  Show me. 

Then:

As Krodhakali Das has pointed out, the problem still remains.  What is the correct response from AC and the community towards those who have really been hurt?  It is very possible that these egos could have functioned more gracefully at one point, even if they couldn't be transcended, but after being put through that wringer, they may be crippled for life and creating more Karma than ever.  Who takes responsibility for that?

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

Caroline Franklyn has nothing to do with J. Krishnamurti. What is Jiddu Krishnamuti? Caroline has just changed a teacher for her self gratification. How the J. K's people can search for another teacher? She was facing some identity crisis. Problem lies in her ego. Not only she but most of the J. K's followers have that inner crisis. They are practically backstabbing J. Krishnamurti. So, don't waste your time by blaming somebody. Better involve in battle of Truth like a social fighter, but seekers will never do it because seeking itself is a profit motive. 

The Evening of Conscience

http://www.worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2950&Itemid=223

Re: LETS GET REAL

Chandra

I have a question for you and this may sound like I'm trying to pick an argument with you but I'm not. My question is “What are you angry at?”

Now I could be wrong and you may not really be angry with anyone and it's more of compassionate determination to steer the world in a better path, but form what you write you seem angry.

If this is the case who are you angry with? Some dictatorship of various countries, perhaps the people who let this happen (who let it get this far) or is it some at this site for not following the path you follow. I agree with some of what you post and some I don't.

You posted in a previous post that there are two angers; one selfish or ego driven and the other universal.

Can there really be universal anger? Universal concern I think would be a better term.

You seem to be pushing your anger outside of you and calling it universal anger so you can't take ownership of it, and I may be wrong (please correct me if I am).   

People say that having anger creates passion and dedication but I believe that is a cop out. All anger does in my opinion is create more anger. Now I'm not saying that anger is wrong, it's a perfectly good way to release stress, but you need to take ownership of it and except it as your anger and not direct it at others as you appear to be doing.

That's just my observatioin,

G

Re: LETS GET REAL

Gavin,

Are you telling that Andrew Cohen is a third rate person compare to you, Whitwwave, Tamara and Das? Do not use zigzag language like a false philosopher of Truth. You are blaming one person in his own platform and he permitted you to blame. Always follow little manners in life.

Blame a character, but not a person. Talk directly, but do not play game like a false philosopher of Truth. You may agree or disagree, like or dislike, accept or reject, approve or disapprove, but it will not count in the zone of truth. This is because we are living in a world without an iota of universal concern. At the same time, when something untoward happens to us, all of us talk as though we are the philosophers of Truth.

Nevertheless…

One may talk of mercy, but that is a blatant lie.

One may go on blame, but that is an ugly selfishness

One may talk of love, but that is just self-centered love.

One may talk of non-violence, but that is fear in disguise.

One may talk of Truth, but that is convenient commerce.

Remember! Truth is infinite and can standalone because it is complete in itself. Truth is the only real reflection of nature and the end of all meditation. It is above excuses and reason. It is eternal, bold, transparent, unchangeable, and the most powerful lifeline of the universe.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Though truth is unchangeable, Its meaning can be very different. And words on paper, need to be handled differently then when spoken face to face.

Re: LETS GET REAL

…And we are all apart of this truth, there is no denying that. We cannot escape the truth, we will always return to the truth it's just a matter of when.

Let me ask you another question or two or more:

If we don't change our ways and lets say the world comes to an end or becomes a new and terrible dark age, what then?

I want to change the world as bad as the other but if we do not succeed what do you think will happen? What does the higher power have in store for these times? I curious to know what you think?

Also thank you for you response, I don't know Andrew Cohen or a lot about him so I can't comment in that, but I'm not blaming anyone I'm observing, and in my observation, I see you telling people how and what to think. E.g.:

You write ‘Blame a character, but not a person.' But up above in an earlier post you write this ‘Whitrwave, it seems that you are also an ugly spiritual person.'

Just a little confused is all.

G

Re: LETS GET REAL

If we don't change our ways. you say as if we go on like this, we will end up in a third world or a dark age? Would that same If still be there when it would have been questiones before the Bush administration, and before the rise of China?
I Think, that you think this change is going to ruin us. You, are afraid of change. That is very human of you. The world will keep on revolting, people will keep on killing eachother, and nature will still be consumed, next year. The only thing changing, is the quantities it happens. Yes, one day their might not be more war. And one day, their will be an increase in nature. Wars will kill men, once there is too few men to kill, wars will end. As long as we consume too much nature it will turn against us, so that we sufficate. The world will keep itsel standing. Humans will diminish in numbers if we go on like this. But is that bad? That is part of the cycle of life. I don't think we wil have another dark age, there is too much information, in too many different languages to let that happen.
And if we do, we are inventive enough to rediscover it all. Do not get too carried away for the things that you cannot directly influence, though it is fun to think about.
I will go on later, I have to eat now, Ciao!

Re: LETS GET REAL

I agree with you Domus 100%.

I'm not afraid of change what so over just as I'm not afraid of dying but my question is in response to some of Chandra's post where he talks about Armageddon and the end times. So I'm asking the question ‘when this happens what then'?

I don't agree myself that the end times or dark ages will happen. I'm just posing the question to Chandra and I could be wrong perhaps he does not believe this.

G

Re: LETS GET REAL

Well, we just don't know for sure. It could very well happen, that the mayans had some astronomers, looking at a comet, and predicted it would get close to earth again in december 2012. They would then have a plausibel prediction, and if they were hit, they'd be right. If it just missed, they'd say the gods have been mercyfull. Sure, for Armegeddon, al we need is a object from space with a certain mass, speed and density. It could happen, but we don't know. And I don't bother myself with things I don't know, and can't find out.

Re: LETS GET REAL

 Article moved to HPM, power, the globe

Re: LETS GET REAL

Don't KILL the Messenger

Re: LETS GET REAL

This discussion has grown so much that I am going to start trying to extract themes and move them into their own threads… I hope this helps and doesn't make things more confusing! Please email me if it doesn't work, and offer your suggestions on how I can be most helpful in keeping these threads managable. (Of course, I have no idea how to tell you what my email address is at zaadz so i think you have to click on my pix and send me a message…)

The posts which used to be here in this spot about HPM, atomic energy, world power etc I have moved into the Miscellaneous Board.  HPM, power, the globe…

Also, someone was wondering about whether or not I delete things from the forum–I try to keep a light touch, and I'm learning about how this whole thing works, so for the most part, I leave things where they are. However, because there is something specific we're trying to do with this forum, which is create a high-level dialogue about the topics in and related to WIE, I will remove discussions that are very (very) tangential, posts by people advertising their products on the forum, etc. Feedback is welcome on this!

Re: LETS GET REAL

Thank you, Laura.  Good call!

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

Sorry Laura,

Excuse me with a kind heart and enjoy the beauty of the saying below:

“Be generous in prosperity and thankful in adversity”.  -Baha U Llah

In fact, I feel that there is a major defect in your organization and even in Zaddz. Enlightenment can reach anybody only through the attack of detachment. Even the Andrew Cohen and Ken Wilber attained the state of enlightenment through detachment, but unknowingly they are trying to repair the world and the human mind through attachment. But when they try to repair the human mind through attachment it will give birth to the mental slavery in opposite person's mental organisms. And this internal sensation of slavery will kill the leadership quality of the opposite. Another point is most of the human beings are too clever and everybody have hidden and exhibiting minds and they know the art to fool the enlightened mind. So, when you interact with any person you also must know that you are interacting with human being's clever and calculative exhibiting mind. Otherwise, you will become slave to the false excitement and false inspiration and this state will throw even the enlightened person from the zone of infinite to finite.

Ignorance generates excitement.  
Passion generates inspiration.  
Goodness generates reason.

Excitement exposes the outer.  
Inspiration explores the surface.  
Reason inquires into the deep.  
 
Excitement reveals wonder.  
Inspiration reveals beauty.  
Reason reveals the inner Truth.  
 
Excitement makes us euphoric.  
Inspiration makes us optimistic.  
Reason makes us inquisitive.  
 
Excitement leads to illusion of love.  
Inspiration leads to myth of love.  
Reason leads to ocean of love.  
 
Shallowness emanates from excitement.  
Reliance emanates from inspiration.  
Liberation emanates from reason.

Excitement is transient.  
Inspiration is resilient.  
Reason is timeless.

It is always better not to take decisions when one is excited or inspired. When one understands the reason, decisions emerge naturally. There is no need for any effort. This is ancient Vedic law.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Hi Chandra,
I actually think that the detachment versus attachment dichotomy doesn't apply to Andrew or Ken in the way that you're speaking about it.  I think the mistake is made when we're talking about traditional versus evolutionary spirituality and enlightenment.  The difference is in disengagement versus engagement in the life process, the full embrace of all of the dimensions of life.  And that's a completely immersive and engaged way of living that is at one with the NONDUAL nature of the creative impulse.  That is, it is fully engaged in the world and simultaneously always transcends it.  It's the classic question of “What does it mean to be in the world but not of it?”
 
It's important to be clear in what we're meant to be detached of–our egos and the isolated separate self walled up in our heads.  And when that happens we can passionately engage in life for the biggest possible reason.  It's inspiring, challenging, and more importantly it isn't safe.
 
It challenges the way we live and who we resolve ourselves to be.  It has little to do with all of the spiritual ideas we accumulate and far less with who we determine we are based on those ideas.
 
As Ken Wilber says (this is one of my favorite quotes):
 
“Transformative spirituality, authentic spirituality, is therefore revolutionary. It does not legitimate the world, it breaks the world; it does not console the world, it shatters it. And it does not render the self content, it renders it undone.”
 
Gosh Ken, isn't that a bit rough? ;)

Re: LETS GET REAL

“I actually think that the detachment versus attachment dichotomy doesn't apply to Andrew or Ken in the way that you're speaking about it.”

Hi, Kosmo.  Thank you for teasing this appart.  I knew there was a gap between what Chandra is hearing us say and what we are saying.  And the gap only multiplies when Domus is here engaging too.  This is not necessarily a bad thing!  It's fascinating to see how differently we're all interpreting these words!  But we need to acknowledge that our cultural contexts are messing with us here, and it would be good for all of us to get some distance from the parts of us that thinks our interpretations of these words are the only right ones. 

Chandra is probably mostly using the British English that he's been taught, but as I've heard time and time again, England and America are two countries divided by the same language.  I have no idea what kind of English is learned in the Nether-regions.  Imagine all these different versions of English trying to communicate! 

Let's all give ourselves a bit of a break here and take into consideration that we're not being completely understood!

—oOo—

““Transformative spirituality, authentic spirituality, is therefore revolutionary. It does not legitimate the world, it breaks the world; it does not console the world, it shatters it. And it does not render the self content, it renders it undone.”
 
Gosh Ken, isn't that a bit rough? ;)”

Again, the meanings of these words are multi-layered and we need to accept that we're not on the same page.  Polemic is necessary at times when it is important and useful to engage the duality that is in play.  If you've read his Wyatt Earpy series, then youknowwhatI'mtalkingabout. 

But he is also capable of disengaging from that and recontexting according to a less dualistic pov.  So, you can tease and try and trigger if you want by using the polemic, but methinks we're all gonna be alot better off if we at least try and move this convo up to a higher level and get some distance from all that crap, yes?

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

My dear friend, the space-time is in a continual state of motion and cannot remain in the state of rest. From the beginning of the human civilization, it is the space-time that has designed all forms of negative as well as positive enlightenment in the society, even the Andrew Cohen and Ken Wilber's enlightenment is also a part of this space-time motion. Individual space-time always gives birth to new forms of motion based on the interacting and counteracting energy movements of the universal space-time. With the realization of the inner links and depths of this flow, all relativistic streams of the past, present and future will be revealed. To understand the basics of this never-ending motion, one should know the underlying driving forces of nature, working from the minute sub atomic level to vast cosmos and how the same forces operate in the subtler realms of the ‘Mind'.

It is universal space-time and its inherent law of equilibrium that reflects in human mind when there is an inner energy crunch (detachment) and emerges in the form of enlightenment in relation with the particular space-time.

Many current scientific breakthroughs are based on the premise that there is a readymade, fixed or pre-ordained method in nature, mind and science. However, when we see that all is in continual motion rather than in a fixed space-time, new scientific and humanistic breakthroughs are made possible. Universe is in never ending motion and moment-to-moment the space-time changes its form. All changes of form result, not from a fixed space-time universe, but from never-ending moment-to-moment space-time continuity that is the universe. So, adhering to fixed space-time will block our intelligence and throw all of us into the orthodox zone with fixed premises resulting in false conclusions about nature and ourselves. When a mind sees the flow of nature, as never-ending moment-to-moment space-time continuity, then the entire human race will be liberated to explore free from orthodox thinking to discover itself. 

There is no readymade method or fixed space-time behaviour pattern in nature, human mind or science. Everything is eternally moving. In this process, only one who scientifically realizes the conclusion-free flow of nature will realize the true beauty of the conclusion-free behaviour pattern of the mind. A true excellence flowers only when the mind is free from patterns and behaviours based on fixed space-time. 

My revealed book Nucleus of the Absolute scientifically explores the natural science of the cosmic creation and illuminates that in the entire universe everything moves based on the law of equilibrium, be it human mind, atom, sub atomic particle or nature. There is no difference. Difference exists only in our mind, not in nature.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Thanks for all the research, openness, and thanks zaadz for providing this forum.
Most of the conversation here supports my fundamental distrust for humans who profess to have found “the way” and other related “answers”  and then offer them for sale at a hugh markup.

Re: LETS GET REAL

You have a nice way to breed fundamental distrust, and make humans avoid authentic teachings that ask for a small return.

Have you ever heard of Boomeritis?

Re: LETS GET REAL

Yes I have heard of Boomeritis and from my observation many people suffer from it on and off this site. Being from Canada I notice we are no different from the U.S. in this aspect, there are just as many here in Canada as in the U.S.

G

Re: LETS GET REAL

Re: LETS GET REAL

It appears your reply was in response to my response to the original post, so by raising questions and voicing doubts I am accused of breeding “fundamental distrust”. How am I able to “make humans” do anything? Brainwashing is not one of my skills ( not that I'd want it to be. )
Authentic teachings / small return? Neither appear to be on the mark.

Re: LETS GET REAL

You could try and convince them?

Re: LETS GET REAL

convince whom, and about what?
I'm only able to share my thought s and feelings about a subject I'm not that familiar with.
Having read the first post in this series and having visited the links provided, I'm tending to respect the views and vibes being shared from without the “box” .

Re: LETS GET REAL

How am I able to “make humans” do anything? Brainwashing is not one of my skills ( not that I'd want it to be. )
Authentic teachings / small return?
Well, You can make Humans do something, by motivating them, in such a manor, they want to do it themself. Motivation, ayé, is an art. and differs between people. But convincing them, is still the most succesfull manor.

Re: LETS GET REAL

What it comes down to for me is that “talking about” all this stuff is not the same as living it.  Ever tried to convince someone not to be afraid of flying?   Ultimately you've got to take a risk or not.  I hope that more people go for it.  I don't spend a lot of time heeding others worrries.  That's what newspapers are for.  There is too much that needs to be done in the world.  Enough fear and loathing.  Vamos.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Hi Galynne,
     Good point, I've been thinking lately of two good friends, one who was a student with Osho, and the other with Chogyam Trungpa, both teachers who became notorious in their own way for abuses or bad behavior, but both are still respected for their words and good works. Both of my friends were able to compartmentalize the difference between the man and the message. Though niether were the victims of their teacher's abuses directly. In the case of Chogyam Trungpa, his behavior was written off as he was in a line of “crazy wisdom” teachers of Tibet, weird behavior was expected. Senior students told newer students not to emulate his behaviors on that account. It was do as he says, not as he does.

The problem is, as I see it, that ethics are the base of all spiritual traditions. One purifies through ethical conduct. Ethics have at their base, a wisdom. For me, a teacher who's ethics are questionable, then his wisdom is as well. But you can take what resonates and leave the rest. There is much that AC says that I appreciate, but I will not buy his magazine anymore, for example, now that I know that he abused people, I do not want to contribute in any way to that.

Re: LETS GET REAL

“In the case of Chogyam Trungpa, his behavior was written off as he was in a line of “crazy wisdom” teachers of Tibet, weird behavior was expected. Senior students told newer students not to emulate his behaviors on that account. It was do as he says, not as he does.”

Wow.  Y'know I'm putting alot of pieces together now.  There was quite a heated discussion over at one of my pods about him too.

What did Trungpa's old-timer students have to figure out in order to effectively 'splain that to us?  What do they think of our tendency towards indignation over it all?  That whole tradition is freak-showish to me and I really don't get it.  Someone accused me of using “crazy wisdom” once and it really freaked me out.  So confusing!

It's coming to America first...

“It’s coming to America first
The cradle of the best and the worst
‘Cause it’s here we’ve got the range
And the machinery for change
And it’s here we’ve got the spiritual thirst.
It’s here the family’s broken
And it’s here the lonely say
That the heart has got to open
In a fundamental way –
Democracy is coming
To the USA.”

– from Leonard Cohen’s “Democracy is Coming, to the USA”

Re: LETS GET REAL

I take all this talk with a grain of salt.  Every spiritual organization has its critics.  There are true blue followers and there always seems to be a few disgruntled student with tales to tell.  The TM org, Self Realization Fellowship, Scientology, Osho's group, Sri Chimoy, Sivananda (Yogaville), the 3HO and on and on.  Go to google groups or Rick Ross and you will come up with WEB sites filled with disgruntled students with stories.  I have been reading stories like these for the last 20 years.

Maybe these allegations are true, Maybe its the results of having individuals who have evolved spiritually but missed the meetings on how to run organizations.

Maybe they're the reactions of people who already are a bit off balance before they joined these groups.

Sometimes these stories are developed by groups with cross agendas.  Fundamentalist Christians have huge programs to hurt yoga and meditation groups.  The Church of Scientology owns the largest of the anti-cult organizations.

But does this mean we stop reading Osho's brilliant and understandable lectures on yoga, or refuse to read “Autobiography of a Yogi”, or stop buying Yogi tea?

s.
Skeptical yet open.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Dear Stu,

What a beautiful balanced overview of a common phenomenon. Right, no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater, whatever “really” has happened (can we ever know?). Thank you for adding your light to this discussion.

Namaste,

Nicole

Re: LETS GET REAL

Nicole wrote:

“Dear Stu, What a beautiful balanced overview of a common phenomenon. Right, no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater, whatever “really” has happened (can we ever know?)…”

Seems to me the main issue here is not whether to t”throw the baby out” or not; it's finding out what really happened first, isn't it.  You ask “can we ever know?” Yes, we have to know, don't we? There are pages and pages on the former student blog that supposedly contain first-hand stories of “abuse” by their teacher, Andrew. So I think that's why Krodhakali Das was asking for any current AC students at his ashram to simply confirm or deny the facts of any of the stories, not to give a philosophical overview of the spiritual benefits of AC's tough love or to testify how great it is being a student there. And we're still waiting for that.

Re: LETS GET REAL

But does this mean we stop reading Osho's brilliant and understandable lectures on yoga, or refuse to read “Autobiography of a Yogi”, or stop buying Yogi tea?

ABSOLUTELY not  -  & by what other means can we travel - our individual ways - towards the ALL inclusive absolute TRUTH ?

Re: LETS GET REAL

Thanks Stu for your post - I think your point of view is where I'm at, at the moment. I don't have any light on the subject, but this discussion touches me deep, so I wanted to express what I feel.

I've been in a close relation with my Guru from the age 22 to 32.  He's vedantist and a monk. Thoose eight years my (well-fed) ego recieved a lot of punches! but he never was abusive or anything that way! But hard as a rock and loving as mother. No crazy wisdom, but I can tell you I suffered!

So I believe we don't need Crazy wisdom to work on the disciples ego! 

Ok, I'm not enlightened, so you may say that a little abuse would have brought me there. -LOL

Mind you we say crazy-wisdom comes from the east, but I'm not so sure about that! We tend to justifiy abuses by saying it is to work on the ego:

Wasn'it exactly what made a lot of us fly away from a certain christianism! The humiliation, the endless lowering of oneself? St.-John of the Cross spent some time accepting beeing humiliated by fellow monks ( I think it was in south of Spain, while he was punished).

And it certainly works, as the humility which was close to humiliation in some case, brought a lot of christians to high spiritual states.

But Vedanta and Buddhism works the other way round: “You are That”.

Question: What is the importance of the “abuse” taking place in the Disciple-Guru relation, in relation to the mental make-up of the disciple? Does he re-ennact an abusive family relation? Does he work through it?

Even though my Guru wasn't abusive, as I separated from him I found many abusive traits in his behavior! I coudl have left angry! 
Instead, it took me 4 years to arrive where I am now:
The teachings he gave me are amazing, and they are with me, in me, around me, me, not me. The personn I enjoyed as seeing perfect, turned out not to be! (I decided he was perfect, and the I decided he was not!). No more following!
I followed my parents submissively, then my Guru, I made mine ideas I read in books, I trusted television and news. But now, no more following! Just experience. It will teach me. It may conform with what I'be been told, or not, never mind!

Patrick

There's a reference to abuse leading to enlightenement in the movie V for Vendetta.

Re: LETS GET REAL

There's no V in me !  - and weren't  V's motives originally driven by REVOLUTION not EVOLUTION as in Argus's response to my original post EVOLUTION v REVOLUTION

Re: LETS GET REAL

Patrick,

I like you.

I know there's a bit of a language barrier between us and so it is hard for us to understand one another, but your presence - even in text - is very peaceful and non-agitated.  Some people who have been to stillness buy the T-shirt and come back home again proudly displaying their trophy.  You do not do this.  That's very refreshing.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Except that in this case it sure looks like every member of Andrew's organization that has ever responded to the reports of his questionable behavior to students has admitted and confirmed the reports–directly or indirectly. They have certainly never denied the reports.

And the reports are not from just a few  of the “disgruntled” or Christian fundamentalists, but from former WIE editors and community leaders, and even Andrew's own mother (in her book The Mother of God) as well as many many more.

Should we stay in (to borrow Bob Woodward's new book title) “A State of Denial” about this?

This is why I asked Will and Terri to just come right out and explicitly confirm the reports, don't beat around the bush, they've already implied the reports are all true, so why not just end any speculation. They haven't responded but their previous posts and even their silence speaks volumes.

Re: LETS GET REAL

I agree with your points, Tamara, but I think that the reports of Andrew Cohen's behavior is in a class by itself.

I know a number of students of Trungpa and Osho. It seems like their controversial conduct was mainly sybaritic and hedonistic indulgence–sex, drugs, alcohol. With Osho, Roll Royce's and generally verbally tweaking folks.  And that took place mainly in the 70's–a period known for hedonic excess. (what happened later at the Ranch may have been more serious, but it is debatable whether Osho himself was directly involved).

With Andrew Cohen there's lots of evidence of direct cruelty by him toward students, as well as his assertion of power and extreme control–ordering students to slap and assault others, telling students when they can have a relationship or sex and with whom, having students spend hours in a basement painted with “blood” red walls representing his blood and contemplating caricatures on the walls of themselves and others in sexually predatory conduct, demeaning names given to students, insults and humiliation, and on and  on.

Even Andrew's own mother has written of his cruelty in her book The Mother of God.

I never heard of this kind of thing about Osho or Trungpa.

I emphasize all this because there is such a strong tendency to want to turn away, to not believe such things are possible in our teachers and spiritual leaders. I really believe that only with full consciousness–as painful as it may be–only with really looking at the truth can one begin to see the light; and only then can healing begin.

Otherwise we live in a shadow realm, a netherworld of bondage, denial and rationalization.
But you know that Tamara, I know you do.

KKaliDas
Serving Ma

Re: LETS GET REAL

Jesus said,

Seek and do not stop seeking until you find. When you find, you will be troubled. When you are troubled, you will marvel and rule over all.

Jesus was not known to give tough love but in that statement above from the Gospel of Thomas is an example of what you may find when you look from within which you may not like what you see, therefore run away from it. From my experience finding yourself or becoming enlightened will go against everything you may have ever believed about spirituality. Tough love may be needed to snap one out of their comfort zone or past conditionings.

Unfortunately I did not have the luxury, like others also, to experience a teacher or master face to face and I relied on masters long since dead or 1000s of miles away. All one can do in this case is go within and find my inner spirit and perhaps follow readings of sacred texts. As a child I found myself all by 'myself' in my spiritual quest and being born with a heart defect and having two open heart surgeries at a young age; this played a huge role in my inner and outer development. I created my own tough love and asked God (I was a Christian as a child) the difficult questions in my own private place and time. I was very difficult and hard on myself and hated God at times for giving this disease without having a chance to prove myself.

I most certainly was troubled  when I went against my religious beliefs at the time and to finely realize that God and I are the same was amazing and now I marvel and rule over all (as a witness of course). I think everybody is tough on themselves but when it comes from somebody from the outside this can be sometimes overwhelming and too much to handle.

There are many forms of tough love and what our egos would say ‘some good and some bad.' I have no idea if AC provides tough love and in what form, but for my ego the worst kind of tough love would be due to a power trip or controlling with fear and I don't think that is what AC is all about.

In most cases tough love is a good thing, just look at interventions; I couldn't image what it would be like for the loved ones who must hold the intervention let alone the victim themselves. That is tough love if I ever seen it and it works.

(Ww) asked the question above who is to blame if somebody's ego is damage because of tough love. Well from an egos point of view one could say ‘suck it up, you're your own person and you decide how you feel' or one could push the blame to the person(s) involved in ripping ones ego apart. I see both views being posted here with neither being right or wrong.

There is also the observer or witness' view. In a meditative state I observe that all is perfect and will always be perfect in all possibilities. We are but a flicker of light in the vast universe where right and wrong are just possibilities nothing more nothing less. It is not until our egos grab hold of right or wrong and makes it their own and that is what this life is for. And this will always be the case until we die and once again become the sum total of all possibilities.   

But that is just my opinion and I thank everyone for theirs.

G

Re: LETS GET REAL

Cool post Gav!

Sometimes I get this feeling that enlightenment is really cheating.  Like when you're reading a scary book and you just can't stand the tension anymore, so you flip to the last chapter to get the sense of safety that comes with the happy ending, and then go back and finish the rest in the middle without getting all upset.  That's cheating.

Maybe that's why Christianity is the way it is.  “Revelation” gave us a sort of deeply obscured metaphor for the end in which some kind of Victory is guaranteed, but that sense of safety was cleverly withheld.  It still frightens.  For us pathetically weak beings, that doesn't really seem fair either.  No wonder alot of people stop reading the story - both the Bible as well as their own story in light of the Christian God-story.

I “stopped speaking to” “God” several years ago the way I used to, and haven't ever really resumed the old way.  That god doesn't deserve the kind of vulnerability that I was offering him in those prayers.  He was fucking with my head and I'd finally had enough.  But now I see that I don't have to go backwards… and that that's not necessarily what He/She wanted me to do anyway.  I think He/She wants me to outgrow that and move on to the next thing and is slowly unveiling Him/Herself like a beautiful dancer.

I guess you could call that “tough love”.  But, like you, I want that kind of “love” to come from someone who is totally free of the power trip.  Inasmuch as I am projecting something good of myself onto God about this, I have also applied tough love to myself.  I don't really need alot of that from the outside.  Lots of people seem to think I do, tho, and feel the need to confront me about whatever.  When I “act as if” I am free from condemnation and fear and can embrace good things about me, that seems to trigger some people who need to put others in their place.  I got into it yesterday with my Shrink, really bad.  It went as deep as it goes.  But I came out of it okay because I was willing to embrace what was true, and nothing else.  Even as he leveraged me with his Supershrink Powers, I was able to show the lack of need for that.  His power move just sort of shriveled.  Even my weakness was power in the face of such force. 

This morning, I was pondering a sort of funny conundrum.  With all the Shadow Work I'm doing, I realized that there won't be an end to what I will have to confess to.  I think I may have been partly helped along by one of Matthew's blog posts.  I love him.  He really gets under my skin in a good way.  Tickly!  But that gives me such a peacefull feeling and also opens my heart so wide, that like the runner who gets the endorphins, I must keep doing that so I can get that feeling back.  I don't need too much of anyone's tough love.  I just need more of these spiritual endorphins.

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

In my perception:

Creation is a prism which splits the light of being into the various vibrations that we are.  Being separated, we recognize the differences in the vibrations, and then divisions within the divisions, and label much of that as duality of one kind or another. 

When we learn, we learn from the separate and attempt to keep “good” knowledge separate from “bad” knowledge.  We are told that, if we strive to build our intelligence only on “good” knowledge, we will ultimately be able to vanquish all “bad” knowledge and thereby rule existance.

I was fortunate to have had 1 spiritual instructor in my life, although I did not begin to comphrehend what he was teaching us until after he had passed.  This man was a human being, full of the separate things of “good” and “bad” like every one else of us.  But he understood that there really is no difference between “good” knowledge and “bad” knowledge; he understood that the only difference in my beam of being and your beam of being is the self perceived deviations of vibrations within the whole of light. 

Enlightenment is something you must be ready for.  It is always there, always available when you are willing and able to accept it.  Enlightenment is a prism which gathers the separate and re-combines the light of being.

Like some others in this thread, I do not think we can judge Andrew.  He is what he is.  He is a lesson which contains both “good” and “bad” knowledge, no different or worse or better than the many that have come before or the many that will follow after. 

Are his teachings valid?  That is a determination each of us will have to make.  I have read his magazine for a few years now, and found it to be one of the better spiritual magazines I had come across.  I liked the variety of viewpoints given expression in it; I liked the emphasis on spiritual evolution; I liked the emphasis on non-violence.  I did not want to believe what I was reading in this thread and in the related blogs concerning Andrews teaching methods.  Well, you learn.

I do not feel you can promote non-violence if you have to use violence in order to direct others in the benefits of non-violence.  I think that, if you cannot teach without having to have the power of complete control over those you teach, then you cannot hope to help them find Enlightenment.  Power is a red herring; it is a rationalization of the perceived differences between us and is of no use without those differences.  If you must have power to accomplish Enlightenment, then you have a few more lessons to learn.

I do not know if I will continue to read the magazine.  I feel the great compassion of God towards us is the opportunity to pass through the prism of Creation into the prism of Enlightenment.  I feel each of us has been enabled by this kindness to get to God in the manner God allows us, and that, therefore, there can be no one way.  I do not feel you can promote diversity in print, and then vehemently deny it to those who depend upon your spiritual charisma for their own.

But the journey continues…

Re: LETS GET REAL

Sorry I haven’t posted earlier … been busy trying to finish the magazine (WIE magazine … very cool you should check it out … Oh I forgot that’s why we’re here ;-) )

So I quickly want to respond to a few things:

Firstly for the record the phrase ‘abuse is a tool’ and ‘jihad’ (but maybe inner jihad is Ok?!), sounds like some kind of red vmeme brutality … and its TOTALLY NOT what we’re about. As for the word “tool” that implies violence is institutionalized … and if it wasn’t such a serious allegation I’d find it laughable. In all honestly I’m pained and dumbfounded to think that you may think that AC is a teacher that helps work out power issues with some kind of a sick sadistic practices … I beg you to use your common sense. We are after all speaking about the teacher of Evolutionary Enlightenment and founder of WIE magazine  … last time I looked (which was about 10 minutes ago) a pretty sophisticated and open-minded enquiry into the nature of self and contemporary spirituality.?!?

Secondly: This is to Dennis’s last comment: “Like some others in this thread, I do not think we can judge Andrew.  He is what he is.  He is a lesson which contains both “good” and “bad” knowledge, no different or worse or better than the many that have come before or the many that will follow after.”

One definitely should judge AC for what he is. I do not subscribe to this opinion of good and bad … no different no worse etc. One should discriminate carefully based on the full context  … rather than just by the websites of disgruntled ex-students …

Quoting Ww’s possible explanation: “these-people-are-purely-their-own-worst-enemies-and-are-abusing-themselves?” … lol I couldn’t put it better myself. But seriously please bear in mind “these people”  have been closer than any brother or sister could ever be, because we’re dealing with inter-subjective enlightenment, a living non-duality in the spiritual sense. “These people” are anything but strangers, no matter what they may say and feel days, months, or years after these events. At that time our vmeme was the same … challenging as it is —it means a world of difference.


All the best,

Will

Re: LETS GET REAL

Hi Will,

Are you ready for a little “tough love” ? :)

The name of this thread is “let's get real,” but even though you and Terri have been asked over and over to please get real and confirm or deny exactly what Andrew has been and is up to with his students–and you know we mean exactly what he did that has been so discussed on all those blogs and in all those books–you still can't seem to bring yourself to do it.

Another advertisement for Andrew or WIE we really don't need. We're here already, for God's sake. What we do need is some honesty, some reality, please!

Is Andrew still ordering students to slap each other? Or has he stopped that practice? I really would like to know this. If he has stopped it, why?

No one here said Andrew is sado-masochistic. Those are your words. Why can't you just come clean with the facts and let us decide for ourself whether he's sick or sane?

That Andrew gives good magazine doesn't prove much–Mussolini made the trains run on time. :)

As far as the critics who you say were closer than any brother or sister, you are right about that–for God's sake, one of the most vocal is Andrew's mother! Maybe it's because “these people” were so close and shared the “same vmeme” as you, that they know you, and Terri, and Andrew and all the rest better perhaps than your own sisters and brothers (maybe even better, at the moment, than you know yourselves?). And that's exactly why they can speak with such authority–and with such genuine concern– about what is happening there.

And we too have concern and deserve a little hard “tough” honesty from you.

Light, peace, love,
Krodhakali Das
Servant of Ma

Re: LETS GET REAL

Will,

Why, why, why are you doing this?..

“Firstly for the record the phrase ‘abuse is a tool’ and ‘jihad’ (but
maybe inner jihad is Ok?!), sounds like some kind of red vmeme
brutality”

Why are you accusing me of low-meme-speak when you were the one to use the military terminology to begin with? 

“Imagine you are a platoon of highley trained soldiers…”

I was agreeing with you.  I was not being sarcastic.  Do you now disagree with yourself? 

Do you actually understand the healthy red-meme expression of the Greater Jihad, or are you excluding all red expressions as unacceptable to Evolutionary Enlightenment?  If there is a healthy expression of militant evolutionary enlightenment, then why can't there be a healthy expression of militant spirituality expressed in that ancient tradition?  I'm not trying to be PC.  I'm integrating what is healthy in older traditions so they don't become Shadowed and eventually turn and devour us.  I thought maybe that's what you were doing too.  So, now you've got me all confused. 

“and its TOTALLY NOT what we’re about.”

I'm so glad!  Now can you show us how that is so because from alot of pov's out here it “sounds like some kind of red vmeme brutality”.  Honestly!  There are some of us who are holding the door open here. 

“As for the word “tool” that implies violence is institutionalized … and
if it wasn’t such a serious allegation I’d find it laughable.”

Hmmmm…..  was there an answer in there somewhere?  If it were a less serious “allegation”, I (and so many others) prolly wouldn't have so much traction around it and I would laugh about it too, but since it is serious… 

“In all honestly I’m pained and dumbfounded to think that you may think
that AC is a teacher that helps work out power issues with some kind of
a sick sadistic practices….   I beg you to use your common sense. We are after all speaking about the
teacher of Evolutionary Enlightenment and founder of WIE magazine”

…we lack common sense.  When the President of the United States does something unthinkably wrong and someone speaks up about it, do they also lack common sense?  Why does it matter who it is?  Leaders of Good Causes or Good Movements screw up every day.  Even supposedly enlightened causes and movements!  Big whoop!

Since many of us don't know AC, we can't know for sure if he is working out some unhealthy power issues…   but then again, those who have left have been close to him as you say here:

“But seriously please bear in mind “these people”  have been closer than any brother or sister could ever be…”

…and here…

““These people” are anything but strangers, no matter what they may say and feel days, months, or years after these events. ”

So, does that disqualify them or uniquely qualify them to be able to speak out?  I'm on record, as well, for making sure you are seen as uniquely qualified to speak on his behalf.  Which way do you want it? 

And since we don't know him, most of us are doing the responsible thing and asking for either he, himself, to speak to us or someone who does know him well.  Being an American, I understand full well, how people are unfairly accused, tried and convicted in the media, so I have taken steps to try and avoid that.  I'm on record there.  But one of the original purposes of the free press which is totally legitimate and healthy is to observe things and ask questions.  We don't have to put so damned much spin on it that you are screwed coming and going no matter what your answer is - I'm aware of that problem as well.  I am making an honest attempt to be responsible in my inquiry. 

Do you want me to further observe and inquire about your non-answers?  Or shall I stop now?

“last time I looked (which was about 10 minutes ago) a pretty
sophisticated and open-minded enquiry into the nature of self and
contemporary spirituality.?!?”

I agree!!  And that's why I'm expecting a better answer from you or someone else close to him!  Why isn't that forthcoming?!  I don't understand it!  I really do believe there may be room here for AC to be sorely misrepresented - BUT BY BOTH SIDES!!!  I really do believe that boths sides are partly right, as well as partly wrong, and mainly due to vmeme epistemology diferentials!  We've got the Orange “do-what-works” thing present and accounted for.  We've got the Green “justice-equality-and-human-rights” thing also front and center!  From those perspectives, Yellow/Turqu. the issues being discussed are gonna look Red/Blue.  Do you think your response is actually clarifying things at all?!!?

If this can't be cleared up, and the gap cannot be bridged, then why not just come out and say that?  Tell us we're just Shadow Boxing!  Give us something tangible to work with here! 

“Quoting Ww’s possible explanation: “these-people-are-purely-their-own-worst-enemies-and-are-abusing-themselves?” … lol I couldn’t put it better myself.”

Hmmm…. is it really that funny when human lives are possibly going down the drain - regardless of who's at fault? 

And are you agreeing that AC is so firmly grounded in that single identification/interpretaion that he can't see any other identification/interpretaion outside of it also being true?!!  How is that non-dual?

Re: LETS GET REAL

We are all part of the solution, Once you negate either one of the sides, you negate the foundations of the assumptions about yourself. It is most plausible that both sides a right. It is just a matter of perspective.

Re: LETS GET REAL

“We are all part of the solution, Once you negate either one of the sides, you negate the foundations of the assumptions about yourself. It is most plausible that both sides a right. It is just a matter of perspective.”

Werd.

It's just a matter of time.

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

What does Werd mean?

Re: LETS GET REAL

“What does Werd mean?”

LOL

Okay, that was cruel.  I'm sorry.  I forgot about the gap for a minute and was overwhelmed by the common bond. 

Werd.

XO = hug and kiss

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

Ww: sorry, re-reading your reference to 'jihad' I think I misinterpreted what you said. I’m definitely not accusing you of low-meme-speak, I am genuinely appreciating you stretching to encompass quite a complicated picture … let me think about your post a bit. You ask some very good questions, very well.

I particularly appreciate what you are asking me here … because I do believe this is the crux.

“Okay.  This is the most helpful thing you've said, and I wish you would have elaborated on that point more.  This does make a world of difference.  This is going to look like VERY BLUE groupthink to anyone in the lower memes. ”

PS to be clear, I was laughing at myself sounding so fanatical and intense, not at ‘them’

Re: LETS GET REAL

Will,

[unspeakable feeling of relief]

“PS to be clear, I was laughing at myself sounding so fanatical and intense, not at ‘them’”

Yeah.  I'm starting to get the laughter thing.  My various identifications are starting to get so loose and interchangable.  So cumbersome and also so free and funny.

Thanks, luv.

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

I want to respond to part of your post here Ww (its a long one:))

People who cannot attain to and then HOLD the inter-subjective non-dual as a developmental stage have probably jumped up as high as they could while disassociating everything from the lower stages - out of love for the ideal.  Its nearly impossible to tell the difference between that and the real thing when you're living it, but an expert from the “outside” can tell.  At that point, they need to be gently guided off the battlefield.  Anyone with a brain can read the handwriting on the wall when someone disassociates in order to fit in to something that huge and glorious.  This goes way, way, wa-a-ay past disgruntled.  In boxing terms, they call it Punch Drunk.

I'm thinking this applies to Andrew as much as to his students. I think you have states and stages mixed up and mingled here though…
I actually really appreciated this discussion between AC and KW clarifying this topic, on states and stages but as I re-read it to bring some of it to this discussion, I thought their words spoke it all, and sadly, what AC can see in others he cannot see in himself! That one can experience and receive transmission from high non-dual states, yet operate on lower stages than one would expect.
This perspective goes a way toward at least explaining one possibile way this this disparity within otherwise very enlightened people can exist.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Tamara,

“I thought their words spoke it all, and sadly, what AC can see in others he cannot see in himself! That one can experience and receive transmission from high non-dual states, yet operate on lower stages than one would expect.
This perspective goes a way toward at least explaining one possibile way this this disparity within otherwise very enlightened people can exist.”

Yes, this is where we're going to find the answers.  I liked this quote - and this article is one of my faves too.

KW:  “What happens is that whatever structure you’re coming from when you start these practices, for a very long time, the practice is simply going to leave that structure alone. You’ll have wonderful state experiences, and you’ll continue to interpret them through the structure at which you started.

And it’s a real problem because, as I point out in the book, you can’t see these structures by introspecting. You can look within the mind all you want, you can sit on a meditation cushion for twenty years, and you’ll never see anything that says, “This is an archaic thought, this is a magic thought, this is a mythic thought, and so on.” It won’t happen. You have to use other tools of investigation to see these structures because they’re just not given.”

Cohen: And what exacerbates the problem is that inherent in human nature is the quest for certainty and the sense of security that is its reward. So there is always going to be a clash between the evolving self’s aspiration for certainty and the necessity to relinquish that need in order to be able to keep moving up to higher stages without ever halting one’s vertical development.”

Re: LETS GET REAL

Ww
Ironic how those words ring so true of theor speakers?
 
I was contemplating this state-stage issue since last night. In meditation this morning I jotted down something that came to me;
      To the extent which we manifest behavior coherent with the state, do we grow into higher stages.

In other words, the state entered needs to permeate through us, animate us and motivate us before we grow into another stage/enlightenment. It can't become compartmentalized, or only talked about. I guess KW thinks that meditation, or state experiences alone won't make this happen.
To be fair, those zen monks stuck in their mythic realities, probably stayed there out of isolation and tradition. I believe that we in the west are fortunate in  that we are not isolated from novel ways of thinking.
I think that truth of that “certainty” or complacency is the real area to be “attacked”, not some illusory conception of ego, but the clinging to old habits or patterns of thought or behavior. Examine it all!

Re: LETS GET REAL

“To the extent which we manifest behavior coherent with the state, do we grow into higher stages.”

Yeah.  I think that's the idea behind KW's ILP.  In every quadrant, simultaneously, act as if that state were true about everything - eventually the new frequency will shake and shift all the molecules into their right orientation and the new structure will emerge and form. 

I think certainty and complacency are two distinct things.  Complacency is polemic-speak for not being a part of the solution.  Certainty is a function of the rational, objectifying mind.  Certainty is like the bricks that we use to build a building.  They must retain their shape, so we can forget about them and concentrate on what we're using them to build.  We still need certainty about some things - even temporary certainty.  We can always grind them into powder and use that to create new and better bricks.  I'm sure Chandra would have alot to say about that.  But we need to reorient ourselves to it.  We used to be the slaves of certainty - it was our master.  Now, we need to learn how to use certainty to serve us and the future.  It's a helpful tool, like a clock.  But not our master. 

“…the clinging to old habits or patterns of thought or behavior. Examine it all!”

It's actually starting to smell like something good is cooking in this kitchen now.  I'm gettin' excited.

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

Re: LETS GET REAL

In reading Dennis' comments, I see a distinction between the absolute view, of complete acceptance of AC, like everyone else, as divine, in human form, then in relativity expressing that divinity to a greater or lesser degree.

The relative view, is less compassionate, less accepting, it makes distinctions between good and bad, it makes judgements. I believe that we should try and be accepting and compassione toward the person, but not allow that stance to weaken our moral stance, that we can still judge the behavior, criticize and discuss their words, etc. This is the tone I read in the second half of Dennis' post. That we do not judge Andrew, but do judge the behavior.

That we need especiallt to hold leaders, teachers, people in positions of power and authority to higher standards, because of their influence on others. These people hold resposibility for their actions, and it is partcularly distressing and dis-illusioning to see someone have such a disparity between their ideals and their behavior.

If those ideas that Andrew teaches so beautifully do not inform his behavior, if studying spiritual traditions do not transform us in this essential way, then what good are they? Just an idealogy meant to promote an agenda?

Re: LETS GET REAL

What if you found those words, then found the author of those words, and chose to leave everything, and live with him”  And then out of loyalty and devotion to the beauty of those words found yourself  to be victimized, tormented, shamed?

Its easier for all of us to just take the beauty, get whats good out of it for us, and turn away.

Putting energy into this would mean caring enough to feel the pain of those who were abused,and facing this uncomfortable truth. This in no way takes away from the joy. Joy does not require that we avoid truth or pain.

Re: LETS GET REAL

“What if I came across a beautiful quote that I found to quite profound and then later found out that a serial killer wrote it.”

“If all is one, then nothing is wrong.”

Yeah. 

It's a pretty long thread, huh?  You should see some of the other ones out there on the Interweb.  Sorry for the drama.  If it doesn't find traction in you, then thank your lucky stars.  But I'm sure something else would.  We've all got something like this to work through….

In this particular moment, my warrior selves are feeling pretty good about it, my higher self feels pretty good about it, my vulnerable children feel pretty good about it and the I in the middle contains or releases them at will (trade 'em, collect 'em all!) - largely because of the work on this thread.  So I'm rather grateful, actually.

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

Will:

That quote about us being a people separated by a common language keeps coming to mind in this thread.  But one of the good things about differences is what you learn in resolving them.

When you do not judge, you accept.  Acceptance may not be the same thing as approval, but then approval is a part of judgement.  Andrew is a spiritual teacher.  Jesus, Buddah, Mohammad and Lao Tzu were spiritual teachers.  Last time I looked, that sn't bad company to be included in.  Howard Iassacs was a spiritual teacher as well, but I doupt anyone outside of North and South Carolina has heard much about him.

God speaks to us in many voices and through many avenues.  Andrew is one of those avenues.  There are innumerable voices and avenues, most of which we choose to consider being in the past, the present or the future.  Andrew is one of the ones considered to be in the present.

Spiritual teachers provide the syntax around lessons which enable us to understand the journey we are on and the destination towards which we walk.  In order to learn from a spiritual teacher, we must open ourselves up to them to an incredible degree, which makes us highly vulnerable.  A spiritual teacher must respect that vulnerability in order to establish the trust that is essential in teaching.  

Sadly, a lot of people today go looking for a spiritual teacher with much the same mentality as is used to buy a good car.  Even more sadly, a lot of spiritual teachers go looking for students with much the same mentality.  (That is not a judgement of either students or teaches, just the environment we find ourselves in at this time.)  That makes it difficult to find a good teacher.  A good teacher is one who can be known without ever uttering or writing a word, but by simply how he or she conducts their lives.

If you are happy studying with Andrew, and feel you are learning and evolving, then I am more happy for you than you may assume.  A lot of knowledge comes to us in ways we are not aware of at the time it arrives.  The benefit of aging is the opportunity to reflect.

I would not feel comfortable studying with a teacher who puts learning in military terms and couches lessons in the syntax of battles and wars.  I would not feel comfortable in being asked to physically or verbally assault any one, especially those closest and dearest to me.  I feel that would greatly distort the direction of my journey. 

I also would not want to take spiritual lessons in tantric sex, although there are many people who feel it is a very spiritual avenue.  That is good for those who do.  I also have an aversion to investigating any spiritual ritual which involves holding poisinous snakes in close proximity to any part of my body which can be pierced with sharp objects.  Many people derive an almost estactic spiritual experience from this.  That is good for those who do.

These may seem like extreme examples to a lot of people, and the more they are judged, the more extreme they may seem; but they are lessons which some people need. 

I am greatful to you for joining in this conversation.  It has turned into a very good conversation with many viewpoints and understandings being expressed and shared.  It is a good place to learn, and a good place for our common language to become a little less divisive.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Whitewave, do you exactly know what you witnessed these days? Remove the very center “I and My” based mindset and see the inner. The renaissance that occurred in you is totally different. Can you tell me how I can know all these developments by sitting in India? Now, you are out of the deep upset. When you are shouting you may thought that you shouting at others, but in reality you were shouting at yourself in you mental mechanism there was a war between conscious and unconscious mind. Now, first time in your life your mental organisms reached to the river bank of Truth and honesty.

Whitewave, kill the self and move ahead! All human being's self is cunning one. Only when self exhaust there one will witness the wonder of Truth and nature's great art of revelation. Don't waste time by defining your past life style or future dream. The sentence that you wrote when all is one, then nothing is wrong. The sentence is immortal, but this sentence belongs to the immortal people of New Age only. In this commercial Era you can only use these sentences to attain name, fame, position or sex.

Human emotions are nonsense and well calculative. But affection is divine and out of all emotions. One can hurt emotions, but not affection. Hurt is the product of the self-centeredness. If there is no self in you there is hurt, but learning.

Passion is useless drama of human being. But compassion is universal in nature. In the zone of compassion there is no self. Another name for compassion itself is Buddha.

Appreciation is cunning one. So, never become slave to appreciation. Remember! If you want to kill your enemies appreciate him or her. It will give birth to ego and this special ego will kill the particular person's particular capacity in a particular way like a slow poison.

Go ahead with the spirit of Truth and always instead of doubting others; doubt yourself!

Chandra with compassion

Re: LETS GET REAL

In many Native American cultures, the respective society was either outright matriarchal, or a council of women held final say over the decisions of the elders and chief.  Decisions which were made were thought through before being implemented to make sure they would benefit the tribe through the 7th generation to come. 

My wife is a healer.  I have seen her countless times completely alter an individuals anger or pain in just a few moments conversation.  She is always focused on now and she listens with kindness and one always feels she is talking to no one but them, and in these ways understands honor and respect.  What she has ever seen in me is quite beyond my comphrehension.  To her I am a pessimist.  Oh well; the longer she and I do not converse on this subject, the better for me.

In any case, we have brought 5 children into the world, and I know for sure that it is the instinct and special knowledge of the Mother which gives us our grounding in the physical world, which leads us in understanding the universal interconnectedness of all things.  To strive towards Enlightenment, this is a lesson well learned.  To educate the spirits of others, this is where the better part of your knowledge will come from.

And, if you don't believe me, just go ask your Mother.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Galynne and Chandra, do you believe that women are morally inferior to men? THat the weaker wing is a moral problem?

To my understanding, any weakness on the part of females as a sex, is due to the disempowement that resulted from oppression by a male dominated system, not allowing freedoms. Both sexes, and all people could do well to aquire more “virtues and perfections”. Please, we can't have the pot calling the kettle black.

This is a digression from the topic of this discussion, and smacks of moralistic chastisement of females here on the part of males. I ask that we be polite.

Re: LETS GET REAL

with respect to all, yes, the hanging issue seems to be the truth, simply the factual truth without judgements – what really and actually happened? It would be so helpful to simply know the truth without any judgement or spin in ANY direction. Did these things happen or not? The experienced resident students of fox hollow ashram would have first hand knowledge of these facts in order to affirm or deny what has been said. It's important for the interested public to know this, then mull over, discuss, etc. the possible implications for themselves.
thank you.
S.N.

Re: LETS GET REAL

I disagree when you say, that any weakness on the part of females as a sex, is caused by a male dominative society. Or do you also want to state, that all of the male weaknesses were caused, because they forgot to dominate the women with them?
That, sounds odd, but is in essence what you are saying.
Sure, I will not deny that usually it was the man who told the others what to do. And looking at for instance Lions and gorilla's, that is still the case. But when looking at elephants or wales, it isn't.
Our abilities, our weaknesses and our strengths are grown genetically. Denying that is downward foolish. But then again, both sides do that. As A man, I am well aware that I have a larger physical capacity, then the female friends is cherrish closely. Also they are well aware, I can only do one thing at a time, and cannot always find something even though it lies right in front of me. On my turn, I do not blame them for not be able of reading the map, or being scared of driving in the dark. Then again, during the day, I'd rather see my mother driving then my father, and at night the other way around. Why?
Because I know they are different. From birth they are different.
Everyone. Yet this is of course not always the case. That is why everybody should be offered the same chance, but should except that they will be (fairly) judged by their sex. No manager is going to hyer a male secretary. Because they will fail horribly. And no manager will hire a female to do his math. Yes, at both cases it can be different. Thus, at least 90 percent of our behaviour and problems are genetically. It is that 10 percent that can be different then from the rest of your sex, that you need to prove different.
It is putting these differences to good use, which makes one, a good manager.

Re: LETS GET REAL

LOL

Oh, dear.  Laura's gonna have to move all this stuff to another thread too.  Can't we keep our own rooms cleaned up so she can concentrate on other things besides picking up our dirty laundry?!

Jeeeeze!

LOL

~Ww

Post Script: There actually is a discussion going on on gender in the other room. 

Re: LETS GET REAL

:-) Right on Ww.

There is a discussion board on Liberation beyond Gender that you all might be interested in participating in…to keep the boards most useful for all of us participating here it is good to try to keep posts on topic as much as possible, and if someone does post off-topic you can copy the post and paste it into a new topic or board where it's more relevant, and respond there. You can also reply to the original post with a link to where the new discussion is picking up…

Re: LETS GET REAL

Chandra,

It is not clear to me what you are complaining about.  You're not referencing my text when you speak about me, so I don't know what you're referring to.  I know it's cumbersome, but give me a break.  I already told you that your version of english and mine are very different and are causing needless confusion.  Keep it simple, so we can actually accomplish something here.    Please. 

And lets please keep it on subject. 

Just in case you are concerned that I am not witnessing well enough, I am not witnessing too many other people witnessing themselves in this pod or thread.  The best possible exception would be the ”Mediate Me” thread which rocks.  But I don't see you there.  When I have time, I plan to go have fun in there too.  But just for starters, how about if you write a bit of witness of your on-line persona here.  Can you even do that?  I don't mean the empty vessel witness, that wouldn't work.  That witness doesn't speak or write.  But a lower level of observing yourself while you talk to me.  Can you observe yourself talking to me?  Tell us about who is talking.  And who does he think he's talking to. 

I've already done some of this work.  So has Will, actually.  Nicole.  Perhaps a few others.  Try it.  “Change the subject”, and objectify the subject of the previous level.  What do you see?

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

Dear Tamara and Dennis,

In the Vedic scriptures, we can see countless hymns connected with the universal order, but not with the personal order. Nevertheless, the ‘Sage Vishwamitra' corrupted the sacredness of Vedas by introducing his anti feminine thinking. In the ancient days, Sage Vishwamitra, used to suffer from identity crisis whenever there was an encounter with Sage Vasishta, who was a ‘Brahma-Rishi' (an enlightened person with timeless vision).

Sage Vishwamitra always envied Sage Vasishtha's boundless vision. Driven solely by envy he performed deep penance to attain the status of ‘Brahma-Rishi'. His envy-driven single point focus and the personal desire to attain the status of Brahma-Rishi drove him to acquire ‘The Gayatri Hymns'. It was the first Anti feminine Hymn, which was against the spirit of the universal order of the Vedic times. According to Sage Vishwamitra, only men retain the right to chant ‘The Gayatri Hymns'. In this manner, Sage Vishwamitra exploited the selfish space of the ugly male dominated world and became immensely popular. The priestly class of medieval India grabbed ‘The Gayatri Hymns' and made it a pioneering product of their corrupted Anti Vedic Vision. Even today, the priestly class of India endorses the same vision that is being vigorously marketed. 

In the ancient days women led communities. Individual family structure was non-existent and people were viewed as members of the greater community.  This created a male identity crisis, which many men have been struggling with over many centuries.

The ugliness of this identity crisis has given birth to the family concept.  Furthermore, by imposing strict rules on women, men found the means to control the family. Men learned to exploit all the natural laws of existence to tackle this identity crisis.  By generating strict laws, they, were able to make impotent, the infinite power of the feminine force within nature. However, when the Sage Vasishta introduced the family concept, there was goodness in it. After attaining the highest enlightened energy, Sage Vasishta thought to revamp the material world by introducing the divineness of the family. In India, even today, the hymns of the marriage rituals sing of living like “Vasishta and Arundati”, in goodness; this concept has been distorted with identification of family lines, reinforcing and compensating an underlying identity crisis.

Five thousand years ago, in the battlefield of Kurukshetra, Sri Krishna said, “I have created four classes to perform four kinds of function, according to their qualities and abilities. Class is according to function, not function according to class.”

Nevertheless, the selfish priests betrayed Sri Krishna and Sage Vyasa by twisting the divine hymns of the Srimad Bhagavata and Bhagavad-Gita. The Bhagavad-Gita clearly says that one does not have a right to declare oneself as Brahmin without attaining the Brahma-Jnana. This is Ancient Vedic law.

According to Srimad Bhagavata, Kali had completely captured every compartment of the religious world, five thousand years ago. (Kali is the character that exposes only the virtuous part of the mind and hides the sinful part of it. It is a devious force, untruthful and selfish). Ever since, the Indian religious order has been cleverly polluting the inner essence of the Vedic Truth. Sri Krishna had given this hint in the Bhagavad-Gita.

The very word 'Dharma' (religion) stands for truthful way of living. In the zone of Dharma one cannot expect a separate branch as Hindu, Christian or Muslim ways of living. All these divisions are concoctions of the selfish mind. In the history of humanity there have been only two fundamental forces and the same forces continue in the present too, that is, Truth and Untruth.

=======================================================================
“Never should a man do to another; what he would not want another to do to him. This is the essence of all Dharma.” -Mahabharata
=======================================================================

Re: LETS GET REAL

Very quickly, here is an example of terms which I believe need clarification between us:

Identity crisis
Selfish
Mind
Truth [and therefore]
Untruth

As you can see, these 5 words, if misunderstood, can impair our communications quite successfully.  I've made my plea to remedy this, but you are not responding for some reason.  There is no reason at all why I should assume that your intentions are good if you avoid such a plea for understanding.  The burden of proof of your own intention to understand and be understood lies squarely on you. 

Re: LETS GET REAL

Ww, nothing i can see. It seems that i have mistaken your development. If you are playing with the minds to attain any forms of good or bad its wickedness. Only a true, open and direct presentation belongs to the spiritual culture of Truth. All other things are just commercialism.

Meanwhile, i am not interested to change the subject like politicians. I am also started feeling to leave WIE.

Bye

Chandra

Re: LETS GET REAL

[I'm sorry Laura for this tangent.  I'm thinking of starting a thread called “Change the Subject Already!” a litttle later.  Maybe we can move this to that one.]

“Ww, nothing i can see.”

Well, if you can't see it (though more than one person has been trying to show it to you) then the principle of projection is working thus:

Those problems which you are seeing and attacking in others are in fact your own problems: 
It is your own development which you have mistaken. 
It is you who are playing with minds. 
It is your presentation which lacks truth (honesty?), openness and directness. 
And therefore, according to your rules, it is you who don't belong to the spiritual culture of Truth. 
It is you who, like a politician, changes the subject back to what matters less and away from that which matters more. 
It is you who are suffering an “identity crisis”. 

You are free to leave.  But I hope you don't.  IMO, this is the most important part of the inquiry, because without it we're just going to keep cluttering EVERYTHING up with our karma and missing the mark.  I know I have karma already!!  I freakin' lead with my chin on that one!  You do too!  Stop trying to claim that you don't.

I am willing and ready to talk about my contribution to the problem if you stop pretending that you are beyond corruption in this matter.  If not, then stop bothering me.  I've got work to do.

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

I was thrilled about the discussions which went on, because they have given me hints about the guru-disciple relationship. And I have many questions about that relationship.

Although it started around AC, I thought it was nice because I could relate to it as it shed lights on the general thema Guru/disciple.

But it seems it has gone a bit astray for the moment! I understand some people need to clarify things about AC. But could this discussion lead to an understanding of that special relationship on a general basis?

I made a search on other pods and could not find anything the like that would fit this thema.

If anyone of you know a pod were that theme is currently beeing explored I would be glad to here from.

I specially like the fact that the discussion is open, sometimes irreverential, and I hope it can help me (and us ) understand the dynamics of this bond, made of: wish for enlightenment, dependence, learning, love, hate, independance - you don't have to have the numbesr in this order to win!

Love to you all,

Patrick

Re: LETS GET REAL

I would really like that too.  While I don't have time to do a full search (too many problems with searching…) I would be willing to start a thread and contribute to it.  I have such a hunger for guru-love and I suspect that that kind of transmission would get me pretty far in a short amount of time, but I can't find one that is either free of projection (unlikely) or able to freely witness their own projection and interact cleanly about it (is there anybody out there?).  

The problem is that guru-love seems to depend on transference - which is, essentially, Shadow Hugging.  That's fine as far as it goes, but can they take a student farther than that?  And can they resist the temptation to keep the secret from the student longer than is usefull?  Are they themselves unaware of the secret?  Those are important questions. 

Until then, I love Jesus!  And I'll prolly love Jesus even after that too.  LOL  But He does this for me already.  And He is with me even though the secret is out.

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

Patrick, Whitewave:

I think we have already started heading in the direction of the thread you are talking about, and i think it would be a wonderful idea as well as being a logical offshoot from this one.  Who wants to start it?

In the mean time, what do we do with this one now?  I think we know that at least some of the things which were reported by former members of Andrews group did happen.  The questions remain concerning how much has happened and if it is still happening.  Then we each need to determine how it affects us.

We have been fortunate to have Will and others from WIE join in the conversation and express their viewpoints.  At first, the mood was somewhat acrimonious, but I feel it has become more a one of trying to understand as we have shared our thoughts, hopes, experiences and fears.

But we are at a point now where continuing on will test us all more than we have been so far in this discussion.  In our separate zests for enlightenment (and even with all the color coded memes and marvelous calculations about who belongs in which ones), and for the well being of fellow travellers, I think we lose track of some of the basic concepts of spiritual learning.

So, let us determine to be kind to each other, and in the body of that kindness realize the lessons we are learning on our paths do not provide each of us with the same knowledge at the same time in the same context.  If you are learning to be a hunter of wild game, and I am learning to be a husbander of grains and fruits, we are learning different parts of the same lesson.  While this often causes issues between us in our energy based physical incarnations, let us remember from our souls to be kind to each other while we learn.

I hope that Will and others from WIE will continue to participate in this discussion.  There
is probably not going to be a point where either they are converted from their perspectives or we are converted from ours, but to continue this open discussion on friendly, non judgemental, terms can only be a blessing to the educations of all who participate.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Patrick,

Nice question. Laura can give a wonderful reply to this question. She is enjoying the infinite bliss of that relationship with AC. It is Bhakti, a complete submission. The very meaning of the word ISLAM is also SUBMISSION. Only a person who declares submission can understand the real Truth of spirituality. Laura declared submission to AC, so the bliss will follow her like a shadow. When a student declares a true submission to Guru there begins a new form of relation which is divine. It is divine because the submission of ego is taking place without gender deference. But individualistic people will never surrender because they inwardly they love their ego, so they must and will suffer even after the transforming experience. Such individualistic brutes will always use “I” “I” and “I” words in their writing continuously. Such people will demonstrate happiness, but inwardly they are zero.

I am happy with Laura and AC's student-teacher relationship.

Thumps up, Laura. Let the sacred flame of the absolute Truth shine bright in your soul.

Chandra

Re: LETS GET REAL

Complete surrender, yes! But, Chandra, you cited earlier Vivekananda, and I am reminded of his own relationship to his Guru.

It was one of internal struggle and never so simple as strait Bhakti! Actually, Sri Ramakrishna (his Guru) said many times that he loved his disciple attitudes: Vivekananda tested his Master, thought he was crazy, tried many times to fly away from him. But was always drawn back to him.

Surrender yes, but after much testing and struggling!

It seems, Chandra, you adopt the Indian point of view which says: always follow your Guru even if you see him coming out of a tavern or a brothel!

Maybe that's what should be done! I don't know - and my mind struggles!

If I may Chandra, Have you surrendered to a living Guru?

With love,

Patrick

Re: LETS GET REAL

Yes Patrick, i surrender but surrendered to nature. In my life I did not even believed any enlightened personalities since my birth. I loved only Buddha and Jesus because of their social fight. When i was 14 years kid i witnessed arrest and i was in jail because I involved in the peasant movement.

Even Krishna I rejected. Gandhi I rejected at that time. But in 1992 first time I have decided to surrender to nature and after that I never even thought that “I done that” or “I done this”. The very “I” and “My” based feelings has exhausted from my brain cells. I have witnessed a complete death of the self. Then I decided that I will never talk lie. And in every turning point of my life I selected death, not life. But nature started taking care of me like her own child. In fact, our ancient Sages named our unconscious mind as a soul. Our conscious mind is cunning one and whenever there is a danger it hides behind unconscious. Every time it is the unconscious mind that saves us, but after becoming comfort conscious mind is telling a lie that “I done it”. Now the very word soul has become marketing product for the enlightenment industry.

Patrick, egoistic people cannot surrender. So, better ignore them.

The Qur'an says, “When hurt touches man he cries unto us; but when granted boon he says only by force of knowledge I obtained it. Nay, it is a test, but most of them know not!”

Very good Example of Ramakrishna Paramahamsa's enlightenment

One of the finest examples in the spiritual history of mankind is the enlightenment of Ramakrishna Paramahamsa. When Guru (spiritual teacher) Totapuri visited his disciple Paramahamsa, he was worshiping Goddess Kali. On seeing the face of his Guru Totapuri, Paramahamsa became completely emotional and asked, “Please do not abandon me until I attain enlightenment. I have been worshiping Goddess Kali with high devotion, yet I am not enlightened”. Totapuri replied that Paramahamsa had all the qualities for enlightenment, but there was one weakness, his unconditional attachment to the favourite deity.

Totapuri asks Paramahamsa to go to his meditation room and close all doors. In deep meditation Goddess Kali appears in his vision. Then Totapuri asks Paramahamsa to cut Goddess Kali's head. He hesitates. Totapuri thunders with spiritual authority: “Just cut Her head! This is Totapuri, your Guru ordering you to perform the action. Remember! It is only the pain of detachment that purifies the path of enlightenment”. After days of deep meditation Paramahamsa emerges enlightened.

This example illustrates that enlightenment is twofold. Initially, one has to progress from conditional attachment to unconditional attachment. Finally, one has to transcend even unconditional attachment to attain total detachment.

Note: tomorrow i will talk on Bhakti

Re: LETS GET REAL

The ideal of the guru chela relationship is beautiful. the student, the chela, sees their divinity reflected back to them through projection and transference (not shadows-but light!) as they see their divine self in their guru, and come to know the inseparability of the two. And yes this is bliss.
And surrender is very powerful, you release your defenses, become wide open and vulnerable, mold-able, to be re-made, transformed.

But the point of this thread, and the topic here; is what happens when the guru is not “perfect”?
And if the human guru takes advantage of the power inherent in this relationship and abuses it, what then? In your wide open state you get hurt more deeply, and as in the Catholic Church scandals the wounds go very deep, they dis-illusion people from God, from spirit. It is the greatest wound.

Was there or will there ever will be such a thing as a “perfect” guru? Are some of the historic saintly gurus stories told in a way like myth? (The biblical story has mythic elements too, but the humanness and weakness of Jesus are told)
 I am really coming to a point where “imperfection” our humanness needs to be taken with compassion, and this does not just apply to my own weak state, but to all, including the teachers or gurus in my life. To be totally naive is to be in your spiritual childhood.
Believe me I am learning this through experience. But this makes the lesson all the sweeter. Is this too not part of enlightenment?

Re: LETS GET REAL

Yes!  This very much is the issue!  That wide-open-I-am-what-you-make-me thing is exactly the issue!! 

But you may misunderstand what I mean by “Shadow Hugging”.  We “Shadow” or disown both good and bad parts of ourselves.  When we “Shadow Hug”, we're being drawn to a good part of ourself that we have disowned.  It may be a very high and super-spiritual part, or a very small and vulnerable part of ourself.  We fall in love with people who's primary selves are like the good parts of us which we have disowned.  In the beginning, our love is all about reunion with that missing piece - pure bliss!  But later, and inevitably, it reminds us why we disowned it in the first place.  There will be something about it which compromises us in some way, and we will not be able to allow them to be right - but, because it's in Shadow, we're blind to the whole thing!! 

It seems like what he might be doing is: instead of uncovering the drama and showing it to them, he's keeping the cover on, but using the transference to destroy the precious but Shadowed persona instead of indulge it's “games”.  This will cause a death, but not a death they will understand.  It kills the idea of an ideal.  It kills hope.  It kills love.  Essentially, it kills Eros.  That's why that woman died of a broken “heart”.  It disassociates to beyond the point of despair.  No longer human.  No more will to live. 

Methinks the people who survive this kind of persona torture are the ones who uncover the secret.  That these are parts of themselves that they are projecting onto him and those selves have not yet dissolved.  They are still alive and kicking.  Still clinging to life and aserting their will.  Those that don't make it are the ones who never recognize themselves, and are completely convinced that they are having a disagreement with a seperate self. 

Clearly, there will be people who simply cannot recognize themselves.  And the truth is that we've all been that person before anyway.  We've all been completely convinced that we are seperate from others, in fact, it took some serious work to win that realization as a small child and if we hadn't won it, we'd prolly be dead by now. 

And so I think this is the point for you and me and a few others here, we know how important it is for a healthy Eros to have that seperate self identity for a while.  Those identities have to be shown that their work is finished.  They have done their jobs well - either protecting us, representing our interests and needs, held our pain or fear or anger so we can survive in this world, etc.  Only then, can they go to their retirement party.  If their work isn't done, they won't want to retire.  But after they retire, they can always come in or out of the office if needed for consultation!  That's the fun part!  And it tickles when they come in and out (or feels really good like some other things!…) and we can laugh - instead of cry.  Or die. 

God did not make a mistake when He/She contracted.  Nor, as Anaximander supposed, did He/She commit a crime.  It was a gesture of Creativity and Glory and if it's okay for God to contract, why can't I?  There is no reason to be ashamed or berated for any of it.

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

And so we come again to the different perspectives on Enlightenment.  In order to accept (to me, attain, is completely the wrong word here) Enlightenment, you have to overcome ego, you have to blend the separateness which identifies you as you into the inclusiveness which is the Consciousness of God.

But it is the manner in which this is done.  Do you do this by disassociation, by cutting off the head of the goddess with which you are obsessed or having your heart broken to display to you the uselessness of maintaining attachements through it?  Or do you do it by example, by the careful guidence of a guru who may let you fall from time to time in order  for you to learn to deal with pain, but who sees the importance of not allowing you to harm others as you grow?  Or is it done by self-realization, when one is able through meditation or prayer or both to realize the unkindness of the ego and so let it drop as if changing out of a pair of loose pants?

You do what you know how to do.  You do what you are ready to do. 

Re: LETS GET REAL

Dennis, I resonate with your perspective, and just want to add to it. I think the words used in understanding the process, or story of enlightenment are very very important. Crucial. I do not like the concept of “overcoming” ego, not sure that word tells the story so well. And why is this important here, in this discussion? I mentioned it earlier on this thread, but I think this is what you are getting at here too, Dennis. That AC has a wrong view or conception or story line about ego and what happenes to it, thus it affects his conception of the work he needs to do with his students. So like you say it is about the manner in which this work is done. But that is based on what you conceive the problem to be.

You say; You do what you know how to do.  You do what you are ready to do.  Yes if you are on your own, but no, not if you have surrendered to a guru. You do what he asks you to do. And the teacher does what he thinks needs to be done, even if that is based on a wrong view, as I believe is the case here. Wrong view=wrong action, and doubtfull results.

I don't like to do this on these pods but I wrote about a Wiser View toward Ego, after much meditation, as this issue was the crux of a problem I had with one of my teachers. It just is easier to link you to it then re-explain my understanding. We need to learn a healthier way to relate to this “problem” of ego. Even using the term 'problem', is unhealthy.

Dennis, I really like your healthy description of this process; you have to blend the separateness which identifies you as you into the inclusiveness which is the Consciousness of God. That blending never implied any rejection, any violent process. Its a loving enfoldment, inclusion in a wider Beingness and wisdom, not bounded or constricted by a single self focus. There is a letting go into that, not a letting go of the self. It is like Ken Wilber says an expand and include. I don't know why AC in his tight relationship with KW doesn't see the application of that idea in the work of the spiritual path that he does? Does he, does he talk that but not walk it?

Re: LETS GET REAL

Excellent!  I think that must be why I'm using the words “dissolve” and “disappear”.  It's not a permanent dissolution or disappearance as in Thanatos, but what is higher embracing the lower as in Agape.  See this favorite quote of KW. 

There must be a reason why KW was confused enough to not catch it in the first edition of SES.  Fred Kofman had to show him his mistake.  He recognised it imediately, but before Fred pointed it out, there was a definite confusion. 

The violent polemic about all this is very much a result of the male domination of these spiritual quests.  This is changing. 

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

Yes, overcome may be the wrong word to use for dealing with ego.  Habit may be stronger than ego, in many cases.  I study peace and non-violence, but every Sunday afternoon and Monday night my wive Jackie has great difficulty prying me away from the football games.  Energy attracts energy. 

You do what you know how to do.  You do what you are ready to do.  Even if you are studying with a guru, a master to whom you have submitted totally, it is still your descision.  The people who break with Andrew, or any teacher, are ready to do so.  This may sound like the ego pulling you out of the means of its destruction, but it really is you reacting to either the ego of the instructor or the learning of the lesson of ego.

In my opinion, I think Andrew is in a hurry; for whatever reason; to accomplish his goals  To teach you do not necessarily need ego, but to lead into battle, to formulate srategy and marshall the troops, you need ego to subjigate the ego of your followers.  I feel (and I have no first hand knowledge of any instances in relation to Andrew or any of his group, so I may just be blowing smoke), instead of dissolving the ego of his followers, he is forcing them to subvert their egos through a very intimidating indoctrination of the superiority of his own.  He feels HE has to make things work out the way he feels they should.  I have no doupt that he is deeply concerned with the well being and evolvement of his students, but the manner in which he is conducting his lessons will not at any point allow the students needs to be more important than the masters needs. 

Tamara, I really liked the part in your blog about not fighting the ego, but working with it and tending it and blending a healthy, content, ego into the many other parts of your being.  Really good.  Whitewave, thanks so much for the spot on KW.  I had not seen that before.

Howard used to tell us that, if you really wanted something, you should let it go.  So it is that, if you want to be whole, you need to let go of all the things you have bound to you in an effort to control down the the smallest detail how you become and remain whole.  There is more love in existance than you can ever possibly realize, so open your heart and relax your need and welcome everything to you.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Tam,

Your blog post was very helpful to me.  Really great stuff.

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

       I came across this on another site, I think it may have something to do with
      enlightenment, can somebody help me.
                                     Your Friend, Don
      
         

Blessed is he who expects nothing for he shall never be disappointed.

Alexander Pope

Expectations can be said to be the root of all evil. Think about it: If we didn't have expectations of people and situations we'd never have cause to be upset about anything! We expect our friends are going to show up for lunch, that the business contract we signed will come to fruition and that no one will cut us off in traffic. But truly, we can have all the expectations we want of people; it doesn't mean we're going to get what we want from them - even if they promised.

Every person is doing the best they can from their current point of view and level of consciousness. Measuring others against our personal yardsticks is never productive because other people don't think or have the same beliefs as we do. When we impose our beliefs on others, the result is pain and suffering on both sides.

Whenever I talk about these ideas, people say that we have to have expectations or no one will do anything. However, think about this for a minute. When we say that, we're making the assumption that without a contractual arrangement - whether it is verbal or written - people won't be inspired to follow through on their word. If we need the threat of retribution to force people to do what they've promised, this means that humanity is not a very responsible bunch! However, if we are impeccable with our word, we will do our best to follow through with what we've said and not create pain and suffering in others. (By impeccable I mean speaking without going against ourselves or the intent to do wrong.)

We live most successfully when we all operate from wanting to do our best because we enjoy doing so and it makes our heart sing - as opposed to being under the whip of a feisty belief system filled with expectations telling us we must perform in a certain way to be good enough. In one case we are living the will of the Creator moving through us; in the other, we are living the will of our domesticated mind. One way of living is fulfilling and limitless, and the other is limiting, controlling and rigid.

Rita Rivera and Meghan McChesney-Gilroy, co-creators of Life Mastery, share this powerful advice: “When life doesn't meet your expectations, be aware of your emotional reaction and the way your physical body feels in the moment. Imposing our expectations on others and/or ourselves can only lead to disappointment. We experience disappointment as an uncomfortable and disturbing sensation within our bodies which steals our happiness and sense of inner well being. Suddenly our quality of life is altered because we believed our expectations about the way someone or something “should” or “should not' be. In fact, becoming aware of when we use the words “should” or “should not” in our internal dialogue is a great indicator that we're about to set ourselves up for pain and suffering.”

Whatever the situation, the bottom line is this: It's not about us. People do what they are going to do and it isn't always what we want, wish or hope for. If we could just remember this one statement, we could be happy for the rest of our lives. Let's forgive others for their side of the situation and forgive ourselves for imposing our belief system on them, for not understanding and for using their actions (or lack thereof) to get ourselves upset.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Personally, I think this kind of teaching is crap.

Pay me big bucks to give you advice that will solve your problems guaranteed!: “Stop having expectations!”  If this fails to solve your problems, the fault is with you, not the advice.  

Human beings cannot stop having expectations.  They are machines created and built (or evolved…   whatever!) specifically to sense time passing, recognize patterns over the past and project that pattern into the future so that they can learn and create.  If we stop having expectations, we might as well be snails.

Expectation is a part of Trust.  We project good outcomes onto things that seem similar to what has been good for us so far.  The development of disciplined doubt, such as in the scientific method, brought an end to the spell we were under, but only in that item that we have objectified.  Whatever we are still subject too, we are still very much enslaved to expectation for it. 

What is really needed is to learn how to manage expectation.  Choose where and when we will apply it.  Objectifying expectation is not destroying it, but retiring it so that it can be consulted, but no longer slavishly obeyed.  We cannot choose to stop being human.  That is one card we must play to the end of the game.  But we can learn how to play will fewer stakes. 

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

OMG are we really going to let this post go past 200…

Re: LETS GET REAL

LOL

I guess so, Gav!

Really, this has been a fixation in many other forums for a long time.  Our obession with dominance and submission is nearly infinite.  These conversations reflect that.  My heart's desire, tho, is to see this one actually reflect some depth, and not just be an endlessly wide but shallow treatment.  I think we're doin' pretty good considering how hard it is to observe ourselves about this.

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

have no other cure for expectations but  ~ Allowance ~  Allow us to become !

Re: LETS GET REAL

Expectation is the root of all evil. It generates a profit motive in the inner roots of human psyche and kills the true beauty of both inner and the outer. Whitewave, it is true that you cannot live without expectation, but there are people who are living for the betterment of others. They do not have any expectations, but the cause.

One cannot attain the highest state of bliss if he or she seeks to attain.

2500 years ago, the Prince Gauthama (Buddha) seeks for enlightenment for 8 years in the forest along with his colleagues. Finally he becomes like a skeleton. His colleagues who used call him as a master in the beginning were leaving Gauthama alone and they are continuing their further journey. They are declaring to Gauthama that HE WILL NOT ATTAIN BUDDHA OR THE STATE OF ENLIGHTENMENT. Finally, Buddha was alone in the forest. He cried a lot. And one day he reached near Bodhi tree (Now that tree exists in Buddha-Gaya) and sat under the tree. Suddenly his mind has come out from the all forms expectation and seeking. When he stopped seeking he witnessed miracle within. He was enlightened. He attained the state of Buddha. He becomes the wonder of the world. After Krishna, Gauthama attains the highest state of enlightenment where all the rivers all the religion discharge themselves.

In fact, 5000 years ago, it is the Sage Vyasa and Sri Krishna who predicted the rise of Buddha in the revealed book “Bhavishya Maha Puranam”. According to “Srimad Bhagavata”, Buddha is the Ninth continuation of Lordly energy. 5000 years ago, Sri Krishna and Sage Vyasa declared all these future happenings in advance. New Jerusalem of the Bible and the structure of the Krishna's Dwaraka Palace are also one and the same. 

Note: But please never try to remove greed and expectations from human mind. Let it flow and witness the final crunch. Only when greed fulfills its need the age of greed will be over.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Laura,

i am not interested in discussion, but in action. i was just waiting for one precious spiritual diamond. Yesterday that diamond has reached me.  I don't know how much you people learned from me, but I learned a lot from all of you.  If Gandhi exists today he could blast this discussion. Once he called enlightened intellectual as Himalayan Blunderers. You are all talking about capital “L” by divorcing capital “T”. 

Through this pod I have realized how the enlightened Western people are least bothered about social fight. My kind request to all of you is please read Mani Bhaumik's Los Angles Times Bestseller book CODE NAME GOD. You can see Gandhi there. When Gandhi comes back to India from South Africa people rushed to see this man in the Port. When Gandhi saw the crowd, he decided to contribute his entire energy to fight for justice. Gandhi took one of the wonderful oaths like Buddha to maintain Brahmacharya and afterwards he never had a sex. Mani Bhaumik was with Gandhi and other freedom fighters. Through this book you can understand the real Gandhi.

Now there is madness in the western world about tantra, but tantric philosophy has nothing to do the Vedic science or Buddha. Biggest spiritual betrayal is going in the name of Tantra.   

Chandra

Re: LETS GET REAL

I kindly remind you Chandra, that the west has, historically, awakened India to social activism when it was just seeing the social discrepencies as a result of natural law !

With love,

Patrick

Re: LETS GET REAL

Patrick, if you are talking about Anne Beasent you are right. She is a valuable spiritual diamond. Immediately after hearing Swami Vivekananda's speech at Chicago she decided to contribute herself to the Indian freedom movement. She is the woman who identified the precious pearl of 21^st century near the seashore of Andhra Pradesh. The day when she saw the the child with a unselfish heart; she adopted the little lad and declared to the world that he is the future Prophet of the Theosophical society. She provided everything to him to study and master the natural laws of nature. In Switzerland there was a huge function after two decades of their Prophet's journey. The whole world was waiting to see the raising Prophet who is going to take charge of the Theosophical society.  But that boy came and sat in the seat and declared to the world that no Guru, no organization, no teacher can show you the path of Truth and happiness and he dissolved the Theosophical society and traveled all over the world like a messenger of Truth. Do you know who that man is? He is Jiddu Krishnamurti; Anne Beasent's adopted son and 21st century's scientific messenger who worked without organization, cult or group. He has not started a new enlightenment industry like the present race which has witnessed very little vibrations of enlightened energy.

Patrick, I am talking about the present race of enlightenment which does not have the practical guts to stand with Truth and Justice. Everybody is busy tom exploit the science of spirituality for the personal gratification.

Re: LETS GET REAL

“i am not interested in discussion, but in action.”

This reminds me of my early days at Integral Naked.  I saw a conversation about something that was really important to me, so I joined.  I think it was about families and children.  It's been a long time, I'm not sure I remember right.  After reading what had already been said, I saw a way that I could contribute and put in my 2 cents.  To my surprise, it was ignored.

??!

I was very confused.  So, I read again to see if I missed some important clue about what the intention of the discussion was, but I didn't see anything new.  Instead of just changing my direction to where the herd seemed to be going, I stood firm and started to ask questions about why my point wasn't included.  And instead of clearly answering my very clear and non-hostile question, they avoided and intimated that something might be wrong with my particular point.

Excuse me?!

Each side became more and more contracted until the exchange was a war between obvious Good and Evil.  Each accused the other of avoiding something for bad reasons.  Neither could see the value in the other persons position.

My accusation for them was exactly like yours above.  They only seemed interested in talking and collecting recipes, but because of their Neo-Advaita addiction, were incapable of actually changing the way things actually happened within families.  They wouldn't “admit” their mistake.  Their accusation for me was that I was only able to create change by first isolating and eliminating a particular Evil and that this only perpetuated problems.  I wouldn't “admit” my mistake.

We were both partly right, but each blind to our own avoidance.  Blindness is not Evil.  It is only blindness.  Both were trying to keep eyes open to more truth, but for reasons we didn't understand (because we were blind to the reasons that we were blind) we couldn't open any wider to the truths that the other side contained.  Impasse…   but only after a flame war.   LOL

This blindness is the reason why we are unable to function as ONE and create the change that we all seek.  The way duality works is by leveraging one thing with an opposing force.  There is no escaping it. Gandhi was a master at using non-force to exert force on force.  Brilliant!  In order to do that he had to be present at the level above the problem as well as present at the level of the problem.  The only way to do that is to heal the blindness.

Re: LETS GET REAL

I hope you folks don't mind if I bring this back a little more directly to Andrew Cohen and What Is Enlightenment?

I am still waiting for some kind of answer about the various apparent unskillful and cruel acts  by Andrew's that are so widely reported. I guess I feel the need to repeat some of them to keep this “real”–the slapping, the money demands, the guilt, the sending a student to prostitutes, the berating of a very elderly woman apparently leading to her loss of spirit and her death….the list goes on. I think that only by staying focussed on the actuality of these things can any real light be shed on them.

Other than general enthusiasm for Andrew expressed a long time ago here, Will and Terrie have been awfully quiet.  What does that mean? And what about all the other Andrew Cohen students on Zaadz? They must be aware of this discussion. Or, for them, is ignorance really bliss?

Maybe they are afraid of getting in trouble by dealing with these issues in a way that displeases the guru? Or maybe Andrew is forbidding them from responding in a real way?

But Andrew hasn't responded to these things himself either. Perhaps he's busy preparing some kind of new victory speech or declaration from on high about the evolutionary effect of ordering students to slap other students and so on.

It is interesting to see how some other teachers have actually been able to be honest and truthful enough to acknowledge their mistakes and try to get help. For example, Andrew's(and Ken Wilber's) friend Rabbi Marc Gafni issued a public apology, stepped down from teaching and went into treatment after his sexual predatory acts were exposed (although admittedly, not until charges were filed against him with the police in Israel).

Recently, a former student of Andrew's, Eli Jaxon Bear, co-teacher and husband of Ganga-ji, another former Andrew student and a co-disciple of Andrew's teacher Poonja-ji (also known as Papaji), stepped down after his sexual misconduct with a student came to light. His organization published a letter  publicly disclosing and discussing the event and the remedial action being taken.

Andrew Cohen is yet to show the same kind of honesty, integrity and transparency that his friends and even his younger dharma brothers, Eli and Ganga, have shown. I only pray that he will find it in his heart to admit his mistakes and to get help as others have done before him. Then, maybe, with hard work and grace he might become at least to some degree the evolutionary force in this world that he and his students so loudly proclaim him to be.

With hope and love,
Krodhakali Das
Servant of Ma

Re: LETS GET REAL

WW, what a post!  If I had any sense of rythm and it would not scare the children, I would dance in the street waving your post above my head.  Dear Chandra, thank you for providing the spark.

That is precisely what we are doing here, looking for ways out of the blindness, peeling back the innumerable onion skin thin layers of isolation that have separated us since we first became cognizant.  How to do it has always been the problem.

I have my own beliefs, my own perspective of God and the way the universe works and how the Consciousness of God contains all things.  I have learned the hard way that I cannot judge others according to my beliefs, and that I cannot manipulate others into my beliefs.  It is normal, and good, for a person to, once finding a belief system which feels like home,  be enthusiastic about that and to want to share the experience in such a way as to enable others to feel the same good things you feel.  Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't.

But it is better to enjoy your bliss while allowing others to enjoy theirs.  In our separateness, we focus on what is nearest to us.  As we emarge from that separateness, we must be able to appreciate our differences while focusing on our similarities.  My beliefs do not follow one particular path.  It is because I was taught by Howard to examine and embrace the similarities that I found in many places that I have been able to begin to understand the immensity and kindness of God, who embraces us all.

In times past, we were physically separated enough that we could maintain our several group beliefs in separate areas.  As the planet evolves, and we evolve and enlarge our numbers, all the areas are getting closer together, to the point of there being no physical separation of groups any longer.  I tend to picture this as two drivers coming towards each other on a two lane road in the dead of night.  From a distance, both drivers will have their headlights on bright in order to see the road ahead.  As the drivers near each other, they dim their headlights so they do not blind each other and cause a collision which could cost both of them their lives.  The drivers do this not because they have any idea who the other driver is or what the other driver believes.  They do it because it is the kind thing to do, because it prevents possible harm to both individuals.

I do not completely feel we will ever be able to all be entirerly “ONE”.  I think God is too great for us to learn all there is of God.  Perhaps I am wrong, I don't know.  But I do know we must be able to get rid of our blindnesses, and alow others to get rid of theirs in order to evolve in a manner that is inclusive of honor and respect for all beings.

This is a place to learn how to do that.  Chandra, Ghandi was a doer, but he was also of the firm belief that you could accomplish nothing in social or spiritual reform without some type of publication in which to communicate your ideas to the greater public.  He wrote prodigiously for the better part of his life, and those writings were responsible for people all over the world becoming interested in the man, his ideas and his India.  And then they came, and they did what needed to be done.

Here we can look at the situation that brought us to this thread and discuss as friends from our several viewpoints how to deal with the issues and how to learn from them.  Krodhakali (please forgive me if I am addressing you incorrectly), this may be a bit off course from the original intent of the thread, but I think discussing what we are learning from this is just as important as getting the answers to our questions.

If Will or Terrie no longer respond to the invitations expressed to them, and if Andrew or no one else from WIE choose to join in, then we have the choice of either shutting down shop (in which case no response from WIE is neccessary) or continuing the thread however we can until we do get a response.  But we cannot confront, we cannot “storm the walls”, as it were.  We are here to discuss as friends.  If I am always we, and you are always they, whatever in the world shall happen to compassion and us?

Re: LETS GET REAL

Krodhakali Das,

Please go and meet the psychiatry and check yourself. But i don't think even the doctor can repair you. One thing I doubt; are a paid servent of some of evil commander.

Chandra

Re: LETS GET REAL

Ww, you cannot eliminate anything. It must exhaust automatically without any effort.

Forgiveness itself is ego. Who are we to forgive? There is a saying, “If error is corrected whenever it is recognized as such; the path error is the path of Truth”.

Whitewave, everything is moving exactly based on the space-time cosmic arrangement of nature.

My wrong and right, good and bad belong to nature. I never thought even in dream that I done wrong or I done right. Since childhood my mental organism is completely free from all these egoistic judgments. In fact, several time I tried to live as a selfish person, but I could not. Then I came to know that people are basically selfish and so they are doing all exercise to become happy, good…etc through yoga, meditation and so on. Whitewave, you or anybody cannot understand me without witnessing nature's great art of revelation. For example, you people are thinking that you are enjoying sex, but no human being is really enjoying sex. The world has become slave only to surface sex. But our ancient Sages used to enjoy the electromagnetic beauty of the ego-free sex. Electromagnetism is completely absent in the surface sex because there is two separate identity in mind when they have sex. But in the ego-free sex identity does not exist, so the electromagnetism is natural. Of course, all people enjoyed the electromagnetism, but only once in life; at the time first touch. At the time of first touch in every mind there will be childish curiosity to know the beauty of sex. When there childish curiosity ego will become absent. But after the little electromagnetic experience mind will generate ego and everybody will plan to design or trap the opposite sex based on her or his will and wish. Here, electromagnetism will become absent and mind will become to self-identity and go on wander on surface till the last breath. Get ready to see the movie THE FINAL DIMENSION. Buddha is the action Hero of this forthcoming science fiction movie and in the end of the movie Buddha will give ground-breaking talk at New York Aerodrome about the electromagnetic beauty of the ego-free sex and the present anarchism of the surface sex.

About the Oneness: When two selfish hearts meets it cannot become equal because it is the material consciousness and its self-identity that meets. But when two or more unselfish hearts meets unity exists in the root itself. This occurs in a unique way because in every unselfish mind there is no identity, but the eternal cause.

Chandra

Re: LETS GET REAL

     Chandra,
       Forgiveness itself is ego. Who are we to forgive? There is a saying, ” If error is

corrected when it is recognized as such; the path error is the path of truth”.

           Very Good.  I say if a person puts up a no trespassing sign and then someone is acussed of trespassing, did not the person who put the sign up create the trespasser? 

            When I say a person needs to forgive, it is so they will learn what it is and where it comes from.  I have learned that when I recognize error I do not push it away, instead I quietly ask in a humble way , “Why does this bother me?” I find that the person that helped me to feel the error had not come to hurt me but to help me see what it is that is hurting me and this has helped me to see the truth and help me in my transformation.
Your friend Don

Re: LETS GET REAL

Chandra The Electromagnetic Sex God wrote:

“But our ancient Sages used to enjoy the electromagnetic beauty of the ego-free sex. Electromagnetism is completely absent in the surface sex because there is two separate identity in mind when they have sex. But in the ego-free sex identity does not exist, so the electromagnetism is natural.”

Say watt? :)

Now I get why you got so hot under the collar when I mentioned the sexual improprieties of Gafni and Eli.

I guess you identified with them,  figuring they, like you, were just into some natural high voltage  nondual hokey pokey, in the realm beyond good and bad. 

Shri Magnetto, please let us know when's your Internet electric sex guide is coming out. Can't wait! Sounds like it will be very entertaining!

Keep up the good work, Electro-Rishi!

With chuckles,
KKDas

Re: LETS GET REAL

I have alot of hostility.

And I deeply hate my own hostility. 

I could give you a very long list why hostility is bad in the Absolute sense , but none of those things are the deep reason that I hate my own hostility.  The real reason that I hate my hostility is because, when I was a child, those reasons have been used by others to justify their hostility towards me when I am hostile, and in an effort to prevent feeling hated by them,  I have hated the hostility within myself so they won't be triggered into hating me.  That is what Shadowing is.  It's an immature emotional survival tactic.  And it is the quintessence of selfish.  It also does't work. 

Self, self, self.  Selfish, selfish, selfish.  No one to forgive, you say?  You are virgin and so you have no children.  Unless you learn how important it is to go THROUGH the progression of Being, which INCLUDES SELF, you would never be able to tolerate the learning curve of a child about the transcendence of self.  If you do not have any experience at forgiveness, then you would not be capable of raising a child.  Because of this, you are not capable of helping people who have Shadow because Shadow is the inner Child who is hiding out and pretending to be an adult.  And since that is everyone, you are incapable of teaching anyone. 

This is the reason why you are not qualified to teach.  And unless we get some response that indicates otherwise from folks around here, neither is AC - for the same reason. 

Since I hate my own hostility, I naturally hate hostility in others.  When I behave in a hostile way towards others who are exhibiting the characteristic that I myself have and hate, that's Projection and Acting Out.  I hate your hostility.  I hate K'Das's hostility.  I hate AC's hostility and that of his students.  I hate it.  But I am trying to prevent myself from blindly acting out from my own hostile impulse towards you and others because that would be hypocritical and it only turns the karmic wheel 'round a few thousand more times.  Just holding it in doesn't work.  That will only deepen the split, and supercharge my own hostile impulse.  I've tried it.  It's doesn't work. 

The only way for me to solve the problem of repeating the life-cycle of hostility it is to do my own Shadow work.  And in order to do that, I have to go back into my small, contracted and separate self - the child who was hated because of her hostility - and find out where she's holding out and maintaining the separateness.  I have to find her and reverse the hatred towards her.  I have to forgive her because a child must have a healthy and loved self before she can grow strong enough to release that self to transcendence. 

What you are doing here is the exact opposite of solving this problem.  You are keeping the karmic wheel turning round and round faster and faster - inflaming and pumping up the hostility in others like a child who hits other children on the playground.  Inasmuch as:

“…error is corrected whenever it is recognized as such; the path error is the path of Truth.” 

So, inversely, as long as your path of error remains uncorrected, your path of error continues to be error. 

And inasmuch as I forgive my own hostile impulses, I forgive you.  This is still hard for me because it is deeply Shadowed.  I feel very strongly triggered by your hostility towards so many people here and I want to act out.  But I'm not going to. 

But I don't have to continue to be subject to your abuse.  I can make that stop.  And so can others.  Zaadz has a pretty high standard for the quality of the discussion out here.  Right now, you are not meeting those standards.  It is possible you may find your account deleted if you continue your abuse. 

That would be a great loss, however, because you have some really valuable contributions to make and zaadz is a HUGE opportunity for everyone to make such contributions.  I sincerely hope you can learn to interact more skillfully and compassionately.  But if you continue to disqualify yourself from this interaction, you may find your opportunity lost.  This has nothing to do with the informational content of your posts, only the lack of skill and consideration in interacting with others.

Please, Chandra.  Stop and learn.  The most effective Healer is the Wounded Healer, and until you expose your wound to be healed, you cannot begin to heal others.

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

Whitewave, your entire comment above represents your inner identity crisis, nothing else.

Remember! Children are in built spiritual, but you people are killing the spiritual beauty of the child in the name of parenting. I gave parenting and generated several Buddhas on earth. There are miles of difference between selfish love and unselfish love. Everybody is injecting selfishness and commercial attitude in the unselfish heart of the child. Please doesn't advice like a philosopher of Truth? Every conscious mind is cunning one. Your and my mind has not dropped from the heaven. You are upset because of your past. When you say your good is yours; your unconscious mind cannot and will not permit you to escape from the zone of frustration. There is some eternal law that controls both inner and the outer fuctioning style of the mind.

Please tell why Jesus said this saying below in the Bible?

Once without using any ambiguous language Jesus said, “Not everyone who calls me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do what my Father in heaven wants them do. When Judgment Day comes many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord! In your name we spoke God's message; by your name we drove out many demons and performed many miracles!' Then I will say to them, “I never knew you. Get away from me, you wicked people.”

Reply to your advice

Advising and blaming both emerge from the state of mind where a particular person feels that “I am the knower”. However, it is not a conscious feeling. The root of this feeling lies in hidden ego. Only when a mind is encircled with material or spiritual knowledge (accumulation of data) it will advice, but if the knowledge is absent it will take shelter in blaming. In fact, advising is a matured form of blaming. When we know that nothing can be perfect why do we still love to advice or blame? Are we not compensating our own inner crisis by advising others? Lord Halifax says, “If a man loves to give advise, it is a sure sign that he himself wants it”.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Chandra,

I am aware of what is correct about everything you say.  It is such a tragedy that you cannot say it in a humble way and therefore keep the relationship sweet and pleasurable.  And it is also a tragedy that you cannot see or accept the truth in what I've just said.  You have so much to give…

I see that you are planning to leave.  I remember you saying that before, yet here you still are.  In fact, the first time I wrote to you was in response to you saying you're leaving.  That was a while ago now.  I think you probably should leave.  You can't seem to get along well with the others here, and so your tremendous gifts are going unused. 

I think you would do better in an environment where it's okay or proper for people to behave bombastically when delivering their ideas, and where the audience is supposed to be equally incredulous.  This is not that place.  This place is mainly populated by people who want to have very pleasant interactions and you just don't seem to be able to do that.  I know that you will come up with reasons why what I am saying is bad, and that you are in the right, but that is exactly the problem I'm talking about.  That kind of interaction is better practiced away from here.  Maybe in the cold, stony halls of academia.  Lord knows, that seems to be where that kind of behavior is encouraged. 

But just in case academia is trying to improve itself in this area, then I think you're out of luck…  unless your eyes open to the fact that you need to improve.  If that ever happens, I think you'll find alot of doors which used to be closed to you opening back up.  But I kinda don't think that will happen.  So, I hope you find some nice niche where you are at a safe distance from sensitive people and harm them as little as possible.

I feel sad, but I will not miss you if you leave.  Very sad.  I know that all my feelings about all this are emerging out of ego and self.  But unless I maintain some connection to ego and self, I will not be able to empathize with others who are completely imprisoned by ego and self.  Just because I have a connection doesn't mean I am a prisoner. 

I hope you find what you need, Chandra. 

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

i left because i cannot with dance with Satan. You dance with them, but i can't! You people sewed all those who use the humble language. That is why all the Holy Scripture warned everybody that the last face of God itself is ANGER, the Anger of the Lord. Go and check the Bible and if you don't like” Anger of Truth or Lord” throw Bible into dustbin and spit on Jesus and show the honesty of the Satan. You may love to use  “Pray and fool” like dirty Anti-Christ, but I can't do it. I am social fighter and living with cause. Jesus is also a social fighter and worshiping him and spiting on him are same.

I am not only interested and will give new world to the coming generations, but not to dual people who use the dual language. I am only concerned about children not about Satan's character. I have witnessed so many inwardly cunning who always and outwardly talking like Philosophers of Truth.  You mind your business, Business of lust and stop advising like a Philosopher of Truth.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Chandra wrote:

 i left because i cannot with dance with Satan.

Thank Beelzebub you're back, C-Man!
Do you know how to rhumba?

But seriously, do you know how to say “demonize”?
Demonizing people who disagree with you is neither helpful nor healthy.
In fact, the way Andrew Cohen does that with all who disagree with him (or even just leave him), is one of the things that  makes it doubtful he can be of real help to this world.

For a recent discussion of this, check out former WIE editor Simeon Alev's new article on What Enlightenment??!

Re: LETS GET REAL

Whitewave,

i left because i cannot dance with Satan. You dance with them, but i can’t! You people screwed all those who use the humble language in the history enlightenment. That is why all the Holy Scripture informed everybody that the last face of God itself is ANGER, the Anger of the Lord. Go and check the Bible once more and if you don’t like “The Anger of Truth or Lord” throw the Bible into dustbin and spit on Jesus and show the honesty of the Satan. You may love to use “Pray and fool” like dirty groups of Anti-Christ, but I can’t do it. I am a social fighter and living with cause. Jesus is also a social fighter, so worshiping him and not fighting for social justice is a cunning behavior pattern of Satan. M. K. Gandhi named such enlightened deserters as Himalayan Blunderers. He always used to meet those who fight for social justice, not to Himalayan Blunderers. Gandhi never considered the enlightenment as the criteria to meet somebody. His non-violence is not emerged from deserter’s character. His lovers used give chest to the British bullets with enlightened smile. Gandhi’s non-violence loves the great battle Kurukshetra and Gandhi is a person who sent members of Indian National Congress to British Army to fight against Hitler.

Whitewave, I am not only interested in social justice, but will give new world to the coming generations, but not to cunning dual people who use the dual language and not fighting like Christ. I am only concerned about the children, not about the Satan or Satan’s character. I have witnessed so many inwardly cunning people who always use polishing language and talking like Philosophers of Truth. You just mind your business, a business of lust and stop advising like a Philosopher of Truth.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Chandra,

What IS your problem?

No, wait, please don't tell me. I couldn't stand to wade through another pointless self-important  dimestore pseudo-vedanta rant.

But, as Kali's servant, I must warn you–if you don't shut up or at least drastically shorten your posts (and STAY ON TOPIC)  I'll take my sword, cut your head off, and feed it to my Garuda.

Love and peace,
KrodhaKali Das
Servant of Ma
(And when Ma's not happy, nobody's happy)

Re: LETS GET REAL

Krodhakali,

Who are you? Why don't you have a profile or pictures? Are you on zaadz to make things better or just to stir up suspicion and cynicism?

Regards,
Steve
 

Re: LETS GET REAL

Steve said:
Krodhakali,
Who are you? Why don't you have a profile or pictures? Are you on zaadz to make things better or just to stir up suspicion and cynicism?

Steve you probably didn't mean it this way, but your questioning sounds kind of accusitory and gestapo-like. I guess your a student of Andrew Cohen, and maybe that's how you address each other,  but it'd be cool to address people's issues and comments directly rather than go after them personally. What do you think?

Scott

Re: LETS GET REAL

Well, his reaction is quite understandable, and in perspective to Krodhakali use of words, Isn't really gestapo like. (if you even know what the gestapo was, and what the term actually means, what happend inside my own country aswell)
Though I fully agree, that no Ad hominem arguments should be used inside a forum. Since the first two questions are quite normal in a forum, I assume your objection was aimed at the final question, which in respect to krodhakali's words ' …I couldn't stand to wade through another pointless self-important  dimestore pseudo-vedanta rant.
But, as Kali's servant, I must warn you-if you don't shut up or at least drastically shorten your posts (and STAY ON TOPIC)  I'll take my sword, cut your head off, and feed it to my Garuda…. '
The following 'Love and Peace' is a bit sour with the rest. Though I agree staying on topic is quite nescecarry (as I am violating it myself right now). and though I do not know the meaning of some of the nouns. I must express the opinion, that 'cutting ones head off' is to be seen, as an Argument ad hominem. And warning someone to 'shut up'-'or else'.
Is simple down to earth censureship, and in great violation with the Forums principles, which everyone here agreed upon at start.
I must Urge Krodhakali, that he tries to temper his enthousiastic use of words.
Kindest regards to all!

Re: LETS GET REAL

Hi Domus,

I guess I could try to explain my misfired attempt at edgey humor as a kind of Wilber/Wyatt Earpy  Rorschach test designed to uncover the shadow and reveal any lurking mean green memes here–but I won't!

I guess I was reacting to Chandra (may he go in peace) saying that I needed a psychiatrist, that I could not be repaired, and that I was a “paid servant of some evil commander.”

Possibly all true, except for the paid part. :)

Sorry to have offended. I'll try not to do that again.

In love and desire for truth,
Krodhakali Das
(Wayward Servant of the totally not evil commander, the Mother of the Universe)

Re: LETS GET REAL

Aah, okay, well I think you got me a bit confused. It was a bit hm, dark humor. Next time, please put some sort of smiley at it , like :P. Then at least we know the humor. (plus your annonimity works wuite good for that, better then my spelling…)
No hard feelings,

Re: LETS GET REAL

Well, I don't think you should consider your questions as wrong. (neither do I)
I just wouldn't like to see this conflict between Cohen's and con-Cohen's escalated, for some silly reason.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Domus and all,

“Well, I don't think you should consider your questions as wrong. (neither do I)
I just wouldn't like to see this conflict between Cohen's and con-Cohen's escalated, for some silly reason.”

Yes.  This is what happens when we get triggered and contract.  That's why my first request all the way at the top was to observe ourselves contracting and reacting instead of just blindly reacting.  Just that one bit of elevation will make a world of difference. 

But it is extremely difficult to do, and for those of us who are triggered the most powerfully, it will be impossible.  That's just another ingredient in the soup which we have to deal with skillfully.  And, therefore, I will have to disagree with your objection about ad hominum.  It is not merely a divertive tactic to draw attention to the way one is interacting instead of to what one is interacting about.  It is part of what I call “Changing the Subject”.  We have to learn new and better ways of interacting if we're going to solve long-standing problems which are exacerbated by the style of interaction.  There's no getting around it. 

And the first step to solving problems like that is to objectify (draw attention to) what had previously been the subject (the interaction style of the person speaking, or the persona) and thereby generate a new and higher Subject (observation of the personas).  This will look the same as ad hominem for those who are unaware of the benefits of this or unpracticed, but the difference is profound.  Mostly, the difference is in the intent.  Ad hominem was created to divert attention away from the conflict so the loser of the conflict could gain a new and different advantage - “changing the subject” in the old and negative sense.  But the newer form of “changing the Subject” is intended to raise the level of the interaction to a place where people can find agreement and solution because solutions are rarely found at the level of the problem. 

Personally, I find it fascinating that people who are supposedly really advanced in the line of consciousness studies are having a really hard time with this.  Including AC's students.  What's up with that?

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

I see what you're pointing to, Scott, thanks. It's a funny thing here, you can't hear tone of voice so it's easy to misinterpret someone's motivation.

The fact is, as a student of Andrew Cohen’s myself, I find K. Das's posts quite aggressive and divisive. It seems to me that he or she has a personal axe to grind (perhaps a former student of Andrew’s) rather than being interested in a truly inspired discussion about the teacher/student relationship, which if real, is always unbearably challenging to the ego’s sense of self, justice and fairness. So my motivation for asking those questions is just for KD to be open about his/her identity and motive for posting on this forum because I don’t hear any sincere interest in inquiring into the complexity of the student/teacher relationship–which is the most important of all relationships for one who truly wants to transcend the division and conflict that the ego—by its very nature—always is. But as I said, it’s easy to misinterpret someone’s motivation, so maybe I am.

I hope that clears up any confusion.

Best,
Steve

Re: LETS GET REAL

Steve, you said:

“The fact is, as a student of Andrew Cohen’s myself, I find K. Das's posts quite aggressive and divisive. It seems to me that he or she has a personal axe to grind (perhaps a former student of Andrew’s) rather than being interested in a truly inspired discussion about the teacher/student relationship….”

and thanks for your post, Steve. I appreciate your desire for a discussion that will take us to greater depth. I also want to remind you that the originating thread was a post by Tim called ”LET's GET REAL”, where after attending an Andrew Cohen or Enlightennext seminar or whatever, he began to feel something needed to be questioned there, esp. after reading the reports of so-called abuse written his by former students. So I feel these issues are a core part of this discussion. And as far as K-das goes, I don’t have a clue about his or her real name or if he/she’s a “former student”, and I don’t really care. But even if a former student came on here to contribute as a Zaadz member, shouldn’t their contribution be welcome for the perspective their input might offer to the discussion, as long as they were respectful to all? That’s just my feeling about all this. Thanks.
Scott

Re: LETS GET REAL

I just came across a quote that I though was relevant to all this, including Steve's feeling that delving into the topic of the reports of abuse of students by Andrew Cohen is “divisive” or intended to breed cynicism:

Thomas Jefferson, in 1779, set down as one of the founding principle's of the then new (and perhaps nobler?) United States ”that truth is great and will prevail if left to herself, that she is the proper and sufficient anatagonist to error, and has nothing to fear from the conflict, unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons, free argument and debate.”

Steve, your own teacher, Andrew Cohen, speaks of “intersubjective friction” as an evolutionary force. I don't think we need to be afraid of “friction” or controversy here, as long as we are sincerely looking for the truth.

Since you are very involved with the Cohen community, Steve,  ( a member of Andrew's band, according to your profile) I think you are in a good position to investigate the truth of the reports about Andrew and to share your investigation with us. Even if you were not around at the time of the very disturbing events reported by many former students on the What Enlightenment??! blog (and elsewhere) , you are probably in a position to inquire fearlessly of those who lived at Fox Hollow when these events occurred. Why don't you ask them point blank and see if they deny them, or just try to explain them away? And then please let us know their response and what you have learned from it. I think this would be very enlightening (far more enlightening than trying to investigate little 'ole inconsequential me).

What do you have to fear, or to lose? Truth is what this is about, isn't it?
I beg of you to take up this challenge to be courageous and free.

Peace,
Kalikrodha Das
(Servant of Ma)

Re: LETS GET REAL

I don't know about the truth off what you posted. It could be fabricated for all I know

But,

just speaking generally,

and with no particular person in mind

My opinion is,

You can be aware of the truth of all that is but still be an asshole about things.

In fact, being aware of the truth of all that is may even contribute to the formation of your inner asshole.

Being “privy” to the secrets of nature is a powerful ego fertilizer. Over the centuries, not a few “messengers of truth” have come to this earth to discuss the light only to be trapped by one of  the numerous pitfalls of ego. The self important belief, ego based believe, that you can do whatever you want to wake people up  is just one of these many pitfalls.  A look at Crowley's life is instructive in this regard.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't see this as a justification for allowing your inner asshole to grow into becoming unlike as to a nazi tyrant. You don't have a right to treat people like garbage and I think, personally, that this is a trap that you have to a) avoid or, b) if you've fallen into it, struggle out of.

Now falling into this trap doesn't make you a bad person either. It doesn't invalidate your work (your work should always stand on its own merits) or anything like that. But it does kinda limit how far you'll be able to take your work because at some point, somebody is going to “check the records” and if you've been bad, it will be harder for people to take you seriously as a bonified spiritual teacher of any calbibre,

And this is not to say that I think perfection is necessarily equated with enlightenment. You don't have to be perfect to be totally within your divinity. The problem is our body. In the end no, matter how bright our little spark, we all inhabit a human body and that body, to say the least, has a life of its own.  I struggle every day with my socialization and programming and the past life inertias of the genetic code of your body.  Thinking about it, I think it could take several lifetimes before you become comfortable motoring around in that wonderfully complex and hard to control physical body of yours.

But that's different.

You know.

On the one hand we are talking about the struggle to learn and control the emotional workings of your body and on the other hand we are talking about taking your own (vast) internal power and using that power to shit on everybody around you.

I don't think its right. If you think that's what you're doing, you should stop and apologize. If you don't, these things have a sort of karmic like tendency to balloon and undermine everything you've worked so hard to built up

word to the wise.

sorry if I offended. Sometimes i get rambling and I just can't shut myself up


m

Re: LETS GET REAL

Dear Michael,

Well said. As I've mentioned earlier, there's an excellent article on this in the WIE archives - we all have stuff we have to work on, no matter how “enlightened” we are, so our behaviour will
reflect how hard we've worked and how much farther we have to go.

End of story.

No amount of pushing is going to get Andrew or his disciples to respond to the allegations, if they really don't wish to do so.

 Can we get on with dealing with our own stuff, instead of obsessing on what we imagine someone else's is?

Please?

Namaste,

Nicole

Re: LETS GET REAL

” Can we get on with dealing with our own stuff, instead of obsessing on what we imagine someone else's is?”

I think this is very unlikely.  The masses require Anti-heroes in order to identify their inner Boogie-men.  They cannot heal their wounds unless those wounds are first identified.  The Nightmare, the Anti-hero, the Enemy - all these things are necessary to expose our own wounds. 

Right now, Andrew is kindly offering himself as a really great Anti-hero.  So, that means we have a really great opportunity here.  But it is unlikely we would be present to that opportunity unless we found ourselves obsessing. 

The question is:  Can we really, actually find ourselves doing this?  Or are our “selves” still wandering around in here lost to us?  Are we even looking for them?

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

The thing about learning is that, according to Howard, we create our own learning.  From one life to the next, we know what lessons we need to learn.  Between lives we prepare for our lessons by gathering our friends and deciding who is going to teach and who is going to learn.  When we descend into this plane of existance in human form, we do not remember what we need to know, or what arrangements we have made to learn what we need.  In the course of our lives, the people who are to teach us present themselves to us in ordinary ways in ordinary circumstances and it is up to us to learn from those meetings.

In such a way, your best friend from the spirit world could be the asshole that infuriates you in some way.  The friend could also be the stranger who gives the blood you desperately need during emergency suregery, or perhaps just the person who holds the door open for you when you have your arms full of groceries and are trying to get in out of the rain.

If you can be aware, you may not recognize your friends from the spirit world, but you can look at what is happening and learn from the situations.  You can learn to be thankful, learn not to judge, learn compassion, learn understanding and tolerence, learn what it is like to harm others, to destroy, to cause pain and hardship.

Don gave a good example with the no trespassing sign.  The lesson could have been for the person who trespassed to learn to respect the rights of others, or the lesson could have been for the land owner to understand the lonliness of separation.

Krodhakali, Chandra, let us learn from this and go back when it is time to the spirit world as the good friends we are.  In that vein, what can we learn from Andrew?  What can Andrew learn from us?  If we always let the energy of emotion decide who we meet and how we meet them, then we suffer from not learning what we need and we harm the learning of others by not following through with our spirit world agreements.

If you strive to be a universal being, to become enlightened, then you have much to learn to get to the point where you can accept the ultimate simplicity of your destination.  You have many friends to help you do that.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Dear Dennis and Michael, Thanks for bringing more light than heat. I love the reminders that we can learn from everyone, even (or especially) people we look up to who greatly disappoint us, and that we are always “found”. I personally have learned a lot from such people, so that resonates deeply

Dear Ww, I'm sorry I wasn't able to be of help.

Namaste,

Nicole

Re: LETS GET REAL

<i>Can we really, actually find ourselves doing this?  Or are our “selves” still wandering around in here lost to us?  Are we even looking for them</i>

Well I don't know about anyone else here but, I'm not lost

m

Re: LETS GET REAL

Have you been following this entire thread?

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

That is the right and the bright question, Whitewave! :)

Have a good day!

Chandra without self

Re: LETS GET REAL

Michael,

Das declared as below:

I am still waiting for some kind of answer about the various apparent unskillful and cruel acts  by Andrew's that are so widely reported. I guess I feel the need to repeat some of them to keep this “real”-the slapping, the money demands, the guilt, the sending a student to prostitutes, the berating of a very elderly woman apparently leading to her loss of spirit and her death….the list goes on. I think that only by staying focussed on the actuality of these things can any real light be shed on them.

=======================================================================

If Andrew Cohen is sending student to prostitute let Das go to court, but what work he is doing here! As a lover of Truth i cannot tolerate such ugly statement. Even people like Das gave enough trouble to Buddha. Once a woman came to the place where Buddha was preaching and blame that Buddha made her pregnant.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Well in our day and age, if some female walked up to the Buddha and accused him of making her pregnant, there'd be an investigation, lawyers, paternity suits, assault charges, law suits, and possible jail time

All I can say is, more power to the sister.

Buddha or no, you have to respect the life around you. If you truly understand, than you know.

In La'kech.

I am another yourself.

We are connected.

Somebody who is aware of that truth doesn't make a living pimping, selling arms, or doing anything else that diminishes or demeans another part of creation.

In love and humble service

Re: LETS GET REAL

Thanks Michael, Seeing Krodakali's posts with still no comments about it from the Andrew students seems very weird and suspicious. Are we being ignored? or dismissed? Is Andrew Cohen upset because the “factual” isssues raised won't go away? Will we end up after weeks with nothing,? Or maybe just getting some general statement or “declaration” from him like K-Das half-jokingly suggested (like from the White House)?? Sorry, but we can't GET REAL until we have some agreement on the “facts” . what's true and what's not. And silence just looks more and more like a confirmation of the reports.

Re: LETS GET REAL

               WE CAN'T GET REAL THEN I GUESS IT'S SOMETHING I HAVE TO DO MYSELF

                                             YOUR FRIEND, DON

Re: LETS GET REAL

They have more spiritual work to do, Scott and hence there is no time them to reply to barking people.

Better i am leaving this zone. I am very happy with Andrew Cohen and his dedicated student’s good heart. Even the woman who blamed Buddha and allegation like you people finally asked excuse from Buddha. By reading your blaming character and Andrew's infinite spiritual silence i have witnessed Buddha in him. Let the sacred flame of the Absolute Truth shine bright in his soul.

i am wishing him all the best and it is my kind request to Andrew that just ignore these people who know only to blame. They need somebody to blame. If not Andrew they will select somebody else. It seems these people cannot get sleep without blaming. In fact, the viruses destroyed the spiritual journey of all Godly people.

Re: LETS GET REAL

thanks for that, Chandra. we'll miss you – bark, bark, bark!

Re: LETS GET REAL

Either that  or they are just to ashamed to say anything at all.

But shame's a good thing.

Shows that there's something redeemable inside.

I'd rather not comment on specific cases or individuals because I just don't know the details.  I do know that there's all sorts of reasons why one individual would want to discredit another. People who do good work become targets all the time. But then, people who do good work also fall into temptation and get turned from the path all the time.

I do believe in karma though. And the wheels of karma are turning faster then ever now.

I also believe that “the warriors” walk among us. So i'm pretty sure that the “time line of acceptability” for any kind of oppressive spiritual nonsense is extremely limited.

nothing like a little pain in the heart to wake someone up real fast

sssssshhhhiiiiiiiiiick





.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Shame can be a good thing. But it can also be a snare. Many live trapped in shame-based relationships instead of alive to the reality of how beautiful and free they are.

Namaste,

Nicole

Re: LETS GET REAL

I absolutely agree with you. But on the one hand we are talking about the shame of the abuser, and on the other we are talking about shame used to abuse. An abuser of women (and children) and others should feel ashamed.  How can you trust someone who says one thing but does another. Double standard, hypocrisy, the worst in human relationships.  If I go to a therapist to help me with my self esteem, and I find out the therapist abused their wive and children, does this invalidate their teachings.

hell ya.

practice what you preach or get of the freaking pulpit.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Michael & Nicole,

LOL  Hell yeah!  I think the issue with shame is that for an abuser to do what they do, they have to have shunted their conscience off to a separate persona and then Shadowed it.  Shadowing the conscience is a safety precaution when you're on the bottom end of a power relationship.  It prevents them from violating you with guilt in an overwhelming way.  The conscience is a delicate instrument, meant to distinguish subtle degrees of hurt in other people and generate appropriate response.  But when it's blasted by the guilt trips of others it loses it's sensitivity and becomes stuck in the “on” position.  At that point, you have to move it off to a persona that you can easily overpower and push away, or you'll be compromised in your daily life. 

That of course repeats it'self later in other relationships and the ones where you're on the top end of a power situation is the best, because then you can reinforce that Shadowing by being the one without conscience and pushing it away into an other. 

The Victim is the one who kept their conscience in their primary persona as a way of trying to find a way to please the abuser.  It's another safety precaution that works with some people, but not usually with an abuser.  It actually feeds the dynamic.  This is the main reason why an abusive teacher who wants to teach autonomy and healthy independence cannot guilt trip them into learning it. 

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

Yes i have,and sometimes it's good just to listen, observe and remain silent………………..

Re: LETS GET REAL

OK, fair questions; what do we want here?  Are we still here for the same reasons we entered this thread to begin with?  Are we moths attracted to the flame of sensationalizm?  Do we wish to attack someone who is highly successful and drag them down to our level?  Do we not understand something of primal importance in spiritual evolution?  Are we a mob?

As we question others, we should question ourselves, and be as honest with our answers as we would expect those to be from whome we await answers.

I came here because I heard the rumors, and I wanted to see them proven wrong.  I have been reading the What Is Enlightenment magazine for the last few years, and had developed a great deal of respect for Andrew and the magazine, although I have not always agreed with everything Andrew has said through that magazine.  I thought I had found a place where peacefulness was both practised and advocated.

As the thread went on, it became appearant that at least some of the allegations were true. At that point, I felt a mixture of emotions, some of which kept me mentally and emotionally hobbled for a couple of days.

 Will and Terri showed both great courage in joining in the conversation, and great loyalty to an individual it is obvious they love and admire.  I hoped we could carry on a long conversation that would resolve whatever issues and questions had been raised in a manner based more on our spiritual learnings than our bare emotions.  These conversations did not develop.

Which brings us to the question, what right do I have to ask Andrew these questions, and by what authority do I judge him when I am a total outsider with no first hand experience of either Andrew or any of his students?  Fair question.

From a strictly material point of view, I want to be able to have faith in the veracity of someone who teaches peace and spiritual evolution.  If I cannot have confidence in that veracity, then why should I continue to buy the magazine and contribute financially to its benefit?

From a spiritual point of view, Andrew can conduct his teachings as he sees fit.  I cannot expect to have any say in how he does things.  However, because he is a public figure and because he aspires to both the physical and spiritual leadership of the spiritual evolution movement, I can expect him to be honest and forthright about his methods.  His students are the only ones who can say those methods are right or wrong for them.

From a learning point of view, I would just like to understand the mechanics of his methods.  I admit I formed some judgements when it became clear that at least some of the allegations were true, but then there is always Howard reminding me that you cannot learn as much when you judge as when you accept things as they are.  I do not wish to condemn Andrew, but, since there are obviously a great many people who have nothing but love and praise for him, and a good many who have more negative feelings towards him, I wish to learn why.

Another reason I am still here is for the conversation that is continuing, some of it off purpose.  There have been some interesting things brought up here by people who are intelligent, compassionate and inquisitive individuals, and I enjoy the conversation.

This thread is an opportunity for the best in people to be brought forward, but also an opportunity for the worst to make its presence known.  Whether we dissolve the thread or morph into related topics, or lose our focus and start wandering all over the place, or continue on as we have been depends upon what we want to get out of this.

Well, what do we want here?

Re: LETS GET REAL

Dennis,
 
Great post.  I really relate to the grief cycle there.  It's hard to know if our interest is being driven by a pre-conscious, justifyable, instincitve human fear of predation or by true Universal concern for all sentient beings.  Methinks that both are the ends of a long continuum, and that our consciousness bends that continuum around into a circle, where they meet, and become the same thing.  If Brahman is indeed the world, how could it be otherwise?

I hope we are looking for ourselves in this.  That's really the best inquiry of all.  And when we find out where our own involvement is, will it be safe to come out of the Shadows and declare it?  Or will an angry mob make it unsafe even to confess to a mistake?

People do have a right to know if they are being preyed upon by someone lurking in the Shadow.  And they do have a right to decide if light should penetrate that Shadow.  But once that's done, then the people have a responsibility to make it safe for a Predator to self-correct.  If they don't, then they will only deepen the Shadow.  The wheels of justice aren't really just.  But once they get going, there's no stopping them. 

“Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison.”

We all have a right and a responsibility to make a decision for what we think is best for the Largest Good.  If not supporting WIE? is the best we can do given the lack of justification on their part, then that's what we should do.  If there is some other way to promote Good besides that, then I would want to know that as well. 

As for my part, I wish to draw attention to the screen in front of us.  The large blank screen of silence upon which we are all projecting all of our own Monsters, and I want us to look at those Monsters and acknowledge that they are coming from us, regardless of who is hiding behind the screen.  The person behind the screen should come out eventually, for the Larger Good to be served.  But his real story should never replace what we've learned about our own Monsters.  It may add to it, or transform it, but it cannot replace what we learn about ourselves. 

Thanks Dennis. 

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

Dennis, WW, Nicole, Michael and all here, I really appreciate the
conversation happening. I guess since we're not hearing any denial of
the factual issues raised that we can assume (as someone said) that something
happened. Andrew as teacher crossed some lines with student's trust
(consciously or unconsciously) that caused some people harm. 
There is all the space to try to understand what it all means, and I
for one, as a seeker care about the implications of this conversation
for myself and for other likeminded people. A Buddhist teacher of mine
told me once when I asked about the “shadows” still within the teacher,
that it is advantageous and right for a student to view his or her
teacher as the perfect manifestation of their spiritual guide. To
literally see them as fully awakened and perfectly divine. This is part
of the catalyst for the student's awakening. The problem comes in when
the teacher believes this about themselves. This is the mistake, that
they think they can do no wrong because they ARE the divine spiritual
guide. I found this really helpful, and wonder if maybe something along
these lines happened with Andrew somewhere along his path as teacher.
It's tricky. I guess the student's responsibility is maybe to trust the
teacher, but not discount their own discrimination or questions about
even their teacher's actions.

Re: LETS GET REAL

Scott,

Right.  That's what Tam and K Das and I have been talking about up above.  In psychological terminology it's called Transferance. 

It's extremely important for the process, but methinks it can only be temporary because as you mature and your eyes open and adjust to the light you see more.  And eventually you begin to see the dark spots which used to be obscured by their blinding light.  So, I think a Teacher who uses that power, call it transference or transmission, should understand how to release a student from that bond with a blessing, because when the transference is broken the teacher can no longer operate in that powerful a way anymore.  Either the student will learn through the mature and compassionate realization that the teacher's “body-mind” is imperfect and flawed, or the student will learn through leaving and rejecting the teacher.  If the teacher attempts to force the student to trust after the bond has been broken, then it causes more problems than it solves.  Instead, the teacher needs to have another relating style at the ready to use for the further maturing of that student.  If they can't do that, then they need to let them go. 

I guess another problem could be when the student refuses to leave, and demands that the teacher change the relationship.  If the Teacher does not operate in any alternative modes, then that can also cause more problems than it solves.  This will most likely engage all the Shadowy energies which resemble the unfinished business between a Parent and Child; rejection, fear, abandonment, neediness, etc.  The Student should be prepared to walk if that starts up. 

“I guess the student's responsibility is maybe to trust the
teacher, but not discount their own discrimination or questions about
even their teacher's actions.”

Actually, no.  It just can't work that way.  The student must be able to safely regress back to what I call, “Amniotic Trust”.  Absolute Faith.  Only then will the deepest door to the heart be opened and the light can get in.  The key word is ”safely”.  If there is no safety, then it becomes very bad ju-ju indeed.  Very bad. 

One of my favorite C.S. Lewis quotes illuminates the gravity of the situation well:

“It may be possible
for each to think too much of his own
potential glory hereafter; it is hardly
possible for him to think too often or too
deeply about that of his neighbour. The
load, or weight, or burden of my
neighbour’s glory should be laid daily on
my back, a load so heavy that only
humility can carry it, and the backs of the
proud will be broken. It is a serious thing
to live in a society of possible gods and
goddesses, to remember that the dullest
and most uninteresting person you talk to
may one day be a creature which, if you
saw it now, you would be strongly tempted
to worship, or else a horror and a
corruption such as you now meet, if at all,
only in a nightmare. All day long we are,
in some degree, helping each other to one
or other of these destinations. It is in the
light of these overwhelming possibilities, it
is with the awe and the circumspection
proper to them, that we should conduct all
our dealings with one another, all
friendships, all loves, all play, all politics.
There are no ordinary people. You have
never talked to a mere mortal. Nations,
cultures, arts, civilization—these are
mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of
a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke
with, work with, marry, snub, and
exploit—immortal horrors or everlasting
splendours.”
~The Weight of Glory

While his pov is somewhat different because of his non-dual Theology, it is only temporarilly so.  His Faith was big enough to include the unspeakable, even while he strove to speak of what can be spoken of.  Reincarnation does not release us from responsibility for what we have contributed to the enlightenment of the soul of another - for good or ill.

~Ww

Re: LETS GET REAL

Hey Scott you wrote:
————
Buddhist teacher of mine told me once when I asked about the “shadows” still within the teacher,
that it is advantageous and right for a student to view his or her teacher as the perfect manifestation of their spiritual guide. To literally see them as fully awakened and perfectly divine.
————

Personally I believe that for a student to see his/her master as perfect, he/she must first realize that he/she themselves is already perfect and only then can one see the master as perfect.

All of life is perfect and there are no rights or wrongs, just experiences in this wonderful universe of possibilities.