Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Their are several cultures each evolved a little further in some points, and a little less far in other. Though holland has a great culture to live in, It isn't an enlightened one. And though some places in Ancient Tibet are beautifull enlightened, they haven't got much to give for their nation. (regardless of them belonging to china these days). I wouldn't really know at this moment. It will have to be a country, with the culture, and enlightened civilisation to match and outrun all the others.
So, until I know something different, I'll say; my Own country : The Netherlands. (though doubtfull)

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

There is only two cultures (selfish and unselfish) since from the beginning of human civilization. More marketable culture is selfish one, but more powerful and at present rising culture is unselfish one. Selfish people worship unselfish culture and maintain selfishness in each breath of life. This cunning culture is danger.

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Hello Chandra,

To a certain extent, I agree with what you've said.  However, I was looking for a more specific answer.  Maybe I should explain why.

I think most of know that no one culture is completely, 100% cognizant of the benefits that can emerge from its own evolution.  One country, culture, or society may be more socially aware while another, more ecologically aware, etc.  I think we can learn from and work to improve our own conditions by discovering the awarenesses of other people around the world.  We may even see ways to begin to work together, which (in my opinion) may speed the process of evolution for everyone without invalidating or condemning other countries, cultures, or societies.

What do you think?

~Jo~

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

J.Krishnamurti says, “The state of the mind that questions is more important than the question itself. Any question may be asked by the slavish mind, and the answer it receives will still be within the limitations of its own slavery”.

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Hi Frederik,

I apologize in advance if my next statement sounds condescending…  I'm constantly blown away by how your youth (and that of so many others here) does not limit your maturity.  It's really quite beautiful to witness.

I don't know anything of Dutch culture having never even been to Europe.  In what ways do you think The Netherlands has furthered its evolution?  Socially?  Politically?

Thanks for playing along :)

~Jo~

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Well, one thing that I think, which is very imported, that there is no dominant religion, and about 42 percent of the people here do not attain any religion at all. I think this is good, it prevents someone from assumeing answers, if he cannot find them for themselves. Making them look for the truth all by themselves. And of course The netherlands is a healthcare state, nobody really dies due to poverty. Everybody gets healthcare, and equality is a high political point. Education is good, and The dutch have the luxury to create most of their own land ( ;) though I do not think that is very relevant here) The Dutch Infrastructure is well maintained, enabling us to worry about other things then the normal issue's of daily life. And most important, Our country is ver, very free. There is no cencus whatsoever, no governement using propaganda (though they could use it), Everyone can begin a political party, as long as its objective remain within the law. (which caused debate recently) The forces of law, and politics remains beautifully seperated. There is no 1 big party, of 2 for that is. There is not such thing as only choosing between two big partys. In holland there is usually about 14 partys present in the governemnent in which 3 partys have to cooperate in order to govern, with the sufficient multitude of votes. And It isn't strange, that a new political party literally comes to power within a year, if supported by the people. Our cabinet falls, when the people dislike what they do. The dutch people has so many influence on how our nation is governend, the recent cabinet is the third in 6 years, with comming election, in two months it will be the fourth in 6 years… Holland is a people's nation of freedom. (and yes it is legal to smoke, and in the future perhaps grow pod)
But holland is crowded nation aswell, and a lot of freedom bring new problems, because law, and freedom of will, often clash into lawsuits etc. And we are still against a European constitution.

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

It is an interesting question to ask who is most evolved because it really means we have to define what “evolved” really means. For me at this point, my interest is mostly in the evoluiton of consciousness which I think of as a deeply spiritual endeavor. I have many Dutch friends and have heard about the freedoms listed below and it does seem that it is a country ripe for something new.  But in my own experience, many of these so called, “freedoms” start to break down when you start to address the really deep spiritual aspirations of human beings. That is when you start to see how attached the ego is to our individuality and sense of entitlement and what can be called “negative freedom” or the freedom to do whatever we want to do whenever we want to do it. I have been working with Andrew Cohen for 15 years now focusing on what it means to really be free, to truly evolve at the level of consciousness and in this journey a lot of the traits that I thought were positive about the way I grew up became stumbling blocks. Times when the demand for freedom at the deepest level - which means giving to my own deepest realization for the sake of what I recognized to be the most important and valuable thing I could do, suddenly came face to face with the freedom to be able to do whatever I wanted whenever I wanted to do it….and that is quite a battle ground! Because I actually think that there is a responsibility that comes with those freedoms to the rest of humanity. And the ego hates responsibility! We have the luxury, the time and the recognition of these matters in a way that most of the planet doesn't. So imagine if a country like Holland, was willing to take responsibility and embrace change and evolution for the sake of the rest of us!! In a way, what you say is true, everything external is in place for this to happen- unlike most of the world.

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

True, It is the people that make up how evolved a place is, and people, are made up, of several different individuals, each being themelves. O yes, freedom has responsibilty, and needs a feeling of 'we' and not just 'I'. But sometimes, when some thing happen, and people fight for their freedom. They Fight for their freedom, it is when you take it for granted that is dissapears. So: Enjoy your freedom each day over again :)

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Hello Gail,

I'm glad for your definition of “evolution” because I have a similar focus.  I am mostly interested in how we might inject more consciousness in the material world.  Being a very visual person, I thought that a view of how other countries or societies are doing just that might be a good place to start.  How to pull the individuals of the world up through the spiral, though, is a completely different matter…

I agree with what you've said of freedom.  It is, I think, a much misunderstood concept.  As is the case with so many paradoxes we recognize in our material realities, freedom cannot exist without responsibility.  In a sense, then, freedom is earned only within the context of responsibility ~ if we cannot be responsible, we cannot be free.

From what Frederik describes, wouldn't it be wonderful if the world could evolve to the level of Holland?

~Jo~

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Hi Jo and All,
I am sorry to be responding late- you have to be quick with these discussions or you miss a whole new discovery! I think that we are talking about creating a new culture- a culture based on the kinds of deeply spiritual values that you were describing.And I am not so sure there is any existing society that reflects this. Let's take Holland as an example. And I guess this is a question for Frederick- do the freedoms that you see in the society translate into more authentically happy, socially generous and evolved human beings?
Gail

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Frederik, I think that one of the most important aspects of social evolution is good education that is accessible by most everyone.  I'm very impressed by this observation within your own culture.  Also, the non-existence of a political party polarity is a foreign but very appealing concept to someone like me who lives in the U.S.   All of the things you describe seem to point to the Dutch really having their act together.

Overpopulation is perhaps one of the greatest stressors any culture can experience.  I believe it was Margaret Mead who concluded that individuals in a society will succumb to baser, survivalist behaviors when confronted by the stress (competition for resources) of overpopulation.  Have you noticed this on an individual level in your larger communities?

~Jo~

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Many, many researcher have done that alike research aswell. It is sometimes a bit odd, how people research something already know, just to publish. Personally I think it is ridicoulous. Selftest: But 50 mice, put them, with plenty of food though, into a too small cage with two levels. In a week, all the mice that were too many, will be dead. Not due to starvation, but killed by their fellow mice. Behold, overpopulation starts war, instinctively. In holland there is, as for where I live, no competition of resources whatsoever. We have good infrastructure to cope with the large amounts of traffic and people. And the ever Duthc respect for other, holds the peace in every day life easily. (Though, because people respect other people's silence. You will notice, strangers do not talk to eachother in the train. Or in fact anywhere else aswell. Though most people like it, and will immediatly start a friendly conversation when asked something. They will almost never initiat a casual conversation during normal daily life, respect seemingly comes at a price… :S) Large communities? The 'Randstad' is so vast there is hardly any real nature left in between, well Ironically, there is a large portion of nature in the middle. But nothing besides that. The 'green heart' is completelly surrounded by the urban area's. Being one of the largest 'Agglomerations' Of Europe it holds 7,1 Million inhabitants. Including the biggest harbour in the Europe: Rotterdam. (which grows still grows, due to land reclaimation into the see). It is vastely mulit-cultural and most if the immigrants, and refugees live there. But it is no ticking time bomb. Though there are some ghetto's. No wars are waged, no mice, killing mice.
i'd say it is pretty peacefull. (though I know this is not the case for some people out there. 

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

(according to the definition given here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_area for metropolitan area, the 'Randstad' has over 10 million inhabitants)

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Randstad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randstad

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Frederik said: It is vastely mulit-cultural and most if the immigrants, and refugees live there. But it is no ticking time bomb. Though there are some ghetto's. No wars are waged, no mice, killing mice. i'd say it is pretty peacefull. (though I know this is not the case for some people out there. 

This is extremely, extremely impressive, Frederik!  Especially the mult-cultural part.  I wonder how it is that people of other cultures have not affected the respectful social balance in Holland…?  Here, in Hawaii, natives of our island communities have noticed the opposite effect of immigration and transplantation in recent decades.

~Jo~

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

How, I can think of 3 reasons: One people came into a country where they had rights, and if they hadn't had them already, could aquire them through the free-political attitude, within the span of their own generation. If they weren't happy, an agreement could be formed with the already present people. Until both were happy. In a peacefull manor. Second: Most people liked the Dutch culture already when they arived, and so no trouble inheriting it. Third: There is no discrimination, nobody has different rights then someone else. But we also acknowledge people are always individually different. One with little intelligence, will probably not get the high educated job he wants. But, when he works, and learns hard. He most certainly can. I most also say, that most if the immigrants, are not immigrants any more. They are either second or third generation Immigrants, who got their native-culture from their parents at home, but their own culture from the streets and people of holland.
Another reason: Our past. Holland formed itself for the first real time, during the eighty year war. In which Holland was such a rich trading nation, that it had its glory moments of art en development, in the middle of the war with world-power spain. Even in the very beginning of the republic, it was governend by tradesman and merchants. They all spoke many languages, and were not unaquaint with foreign cultures. Morever, thei'r 'free' rule, was not conducting any censureship. Thereby in the gold age, many works were printed in holland, because in their own country, this wasn't allowed. And painters and other cultural or 'heritics' from their own country came to holland, to conduct their profession freely. So, In a small place, their was all of the sudden, a center of trade for entire Europe. Once the canal to Antwerp was blocked with toll. Holland was al-mighty. At their peak, there was even a Dutchman at the English thrown. (this Ironically was also the cause, that the dutch lost their good position in trade and power of the seas. More on this on Wikipedia)
So holland always was, a multi-cultural country of traders, do note the following. The Dutch word 'Apartheid'. Because goods and money, wasn't the only thing the dutch traded in…
But beautifully, I never heard of any grunches about that these days.
But It is of course not always sunshine and honey, There are moments of political instability (all the time) think of 'Pim Fortuyn' and 'Theo van Gogh' (no, not that van Gogh)

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

if my instincts lie in the area of vibrations and rhythms,
and listening to the rhythms being created on earth
the most advanced and sensitive rhythms for me are South
Americans but  yet to higher vibratory among them
reach the Cubans and my sensors point to Brazil
at the top of this fantastic pile of fruits.

Also, there are interesting rhythms created in Africa
and i personally love Arabic Music…

that is as far as nations go yet, today you have mix
ethnic music created - i know it as fusion; and inside
fusion i love when they put together the most delicate
and sensitive themes
 

namaste
:)

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Domus

I love to give complete advice to your country. Even though the world economy falls you will not get any harm.

Chandra with highest spiritual love

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Chandra you're going to have to explain that one…

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

You’re in luck because in some future issues of WIE we’re going to be featuring some communities.

This is a huge question and I agree with what some people said that you have to make clear in what sense you are talking about. Don Beck has often said that the Netherlands has the greatest potential of flipping into “yellow” or “turquoise”/integral consciousness. I
have no clue though.

Joel Garreau just came to Foxhollow to give a talk principally on the subject of his new(ish) book Radical Evolution (technology trends, futurism, different future scenarios). He responded to someone who asked whether he thought China would become the superpower that people are predicting. He responded by saying that China has some really serious demographic problems (lots of old people) that are likely to affect it in ways we arent’ able to project yet. It just made me realize how little I really understand about what’s going on around the world and in other countries. My own superficial knowledge of other countries and cultures really isn’t enough to base any bold claims on.

But for all that it’s worth (eenie, meenie, minie, moe…) I hear The Federation of Damanhur is pretty cool. And to give a shout out to my own homestead, (w00t!) Foxhollow is pretty extraordinary. It’s a 21st century sangha and teacher exploring the frontiers of reality. To my knowledge, there are only a few places around the world where that’s happening.

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Kosmo and Frederik,

From what Frederik describes of Dutch culture, I can see why Beck feels that theirs may be the first to cross into Second Tier.  I'm ecstatic that WIE will be delving into this subject.

I think it's important that we objectively (as possible) recognize evolution where it thrives without the fear of not being “politically correct” in discussing what makes these cultures so different from our own.  Evolution and change go hand in hand, and if any of us desires even slightly to change the world, then there must be a willingness to describe the changes we want to see.  Observing other, advancing cultures is much more helpful towards those ends rather than merely crossing our fingers…

~Jo

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

although KW and others have drawn new maps for spiritual evolution, and while the coloring of different levels make them more approachable; in essence,  the need to map and the consequent question 'Who's The Most Evolved' belong somewhere between blue to green.

this in return invites such nationalist or ideological answers, but despite the apparent convenience, i don't see how and why the 'memes'  are going to demonstrate in any given or convenient  traditional social frames, sorry, it does-not resonant with me at all.

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Fredrik,

I received some important news from the intelligence connected with the forthcoming American martial law. It is more than the Senate declaration. Tomorrow i may post it directly in the HPM forum of WIE. Do you know about the American culture? They are frustrated within because of their too individualistic vision. My dear Fredrik, you are representing a new race and this upcoming race itself is representing the emerging culture of the New Age. I will send one contact to you. She is American and her age is only 22. She also represents the same culture that you represent. In fact, culture is the product the inner, not the outer. If you want more clarification, take one unselfish man of America, German, Japan, Russia and your area separately and do the simple survey. Any study on any subject is useless for nothing because there is some great art in nature. That is revelation. For example, when two selfish hearts meets it cannot become equal because it is the material consciousness and its selfish identity that meets. But when two or more unselfish hearts meets unity exists in the root itself. This occurs in a unique way because in every unselfish mind there is no identity, but the eternal cause. Of course, you need deep discussions at present, but also keep the heart in red alert. Shankaracharya says, “The mysteries of life are revealed one who keeps his mind vigilant all the time of life”.

Chandra

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Hi Yosama,

Thanks for your honest response.  I understand that this question/subject may not resonate with some or most.    As for the subject title, “Who's The Most Evolved,” I just figured it would catch somebody's attention :)

However, I don't view an objective inquiry into what makes one society more evolved than another as potentially ego- or ethnocentric.  And if it turns out that way, at least we'll know where we stand as individual participants in our own personal evolutions.

I'm not necessarliy wanting to describe social evolution in terms of Spiral Dynamics; I just wanted perhaps a voyeuristic view into what makes an evolved society.  But in answer to your observations and in SD terms: 

The majority of those weighing in will probably not be rabidly nationalistic, Blue reactionists.  I suspect there aren't too many Blues around these parts anyway.  The fear of labeling is a (mean) Green penchant, and so that effectively eliminates them from such a discussion (except in protest of it, I suppose).  So even an open, glaring invitation to participate in unconscious nationalism and extremist ideological debates may go largely unanswered.  Which is fine by me.

Road maps and master plans are not what I'm looking for.  I'm just looking for ends, not means to those ends; every society must work out their own development for themselves.  I do still think though that viewing other societies as good examples can only benefit all of us on some level.

~Jo

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Hi Jo ,

your answer was good and it allows me to suggest a way to measure and draw alternative guidelines to groups ~  groups that are defined by responding to a key note, vibrating tunes and frequency.

This way groups are indeed gathered but unlike what we usually look for in familiar sociology these are momentary as they notice, resonate respond and act in harmonious relation about a certain note, a soul urge or a shared sense of responsibility if you like etc. I wonder how you like that ;)

visualizing will produce maps drawn by  resonating individuals but not necessarily define them as groups unless defining in itself is a wave provoked by another key played.  If this inconsistency of groups is found inconvenient, you are invited to compensate by a sense of balance found when one allows (or in favor;)  of the visualization.

namaste
yosyama

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

saying that is not meant to withhold anybody from grouping or from drawing necessary borders but to me it not only honestly describes the reality but also defines the groups exist. only the frequencies widely defer.

also to your saying that  viewing societies as good examples can benefit all of us on some level, it is true that people in the third world like in Central Africa set examples for themselves such as North European administration and society to look up to , while at same time in other most prominent aspects of life, they are relatively much ahead - like in spiritual hearing and personal closeness if i may guess..

So this reality only invites that map which i said

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Hello Yosama,

These are the kinds of distinctions I was looking for :)  Evolution, as Gail pointed out, can happen in many arenas within ourselves and within societies.  And while we may be at a particular level, say, politically, it doesn't automatically follow that we are at a similar level spiritually or culturally.  We all have some growing up to do…

While I still maintain that I'm not really looking for maps, I don't view them, by themselves, as serving any other purpose than describing particular terrains.  It's what we do with those maps that create realities descriptive of and pertinent to our developments.

Thanks for your very thoughtful response, Yosama.

~Jo

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Jo,
 

In a true spiritual zone there is no separate culture, but the inner thirst for the universal Truth which leads to a true culture of New Age. Nationalities are absolutely meaning in the spiritual zone. Once M. K. Gandhi declared in the battlefield of Truth as following; “I am not patriotic nor do I represent a separate culture, but the Truth. Some unjust is going on in my surrounding and as a spiritual person it is my first duty stand against the unjust. I am not doing it because I am Indian. Even when I was in South Africa I done the same because it is the duty of every spiritual person to raise voice against the unjust. This is a spiritual culture of Truth and Justice and I am following the same. So, please do not treat me as a patriotic because I am not!”

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Hello Chandra,

I agree that the fight for justice and truth go beyond the distinctions of culture, nationality, and ethnicity.  Mahatma Ghandi was an inspiring individual; so many non-violent, social activists serve as good examples in my own quests against injustice.  But could you explain what non-separation, the declaration of non-nationalist affiliation and the fight for justice have to do with any examples of social evolution that we see around us today…?

Don't get me wrong ~ I think it's a wonderful ideal, Chandra.  But quite frankly and relatively speaking, there aren't too many people (at least not in the U.S.) who are ready to adopt such a spirituality or spiritual way of thinking and behaving…

~Jo

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Would you like to try to establish some sort of theoretical backround for this? In other words, what sort of criteria would we look for in a country to judge how evolved it is? Or, what are the different lines of development that run through a country and culture? I'll try to begin:

1) personal freedoms
2) group freedoms
3) what sort of national objectives are there
   a. for the country
   b.for particular relationships with other countries
   c. for the world
4) how well does the country help all of its citizens no matter where they are on the spiral
5) worker compensation
6) child rearing
  a. how much does the government value children
  b. how much do parents, generally, value children (dfficult to answer in a diverse country)


Well, that's a start. I just wanted to try to get some sort of model for looking at things first.

Denmark Is The Happiest

I read that Denmark won some happiest country award. I like the freedom of Holland too. Then there's the Kingdom of Bhutan, which talks a lot about happiness. But none of them are enlightened.

The evolutionary switch is from the competitive security mode to the cooperative happiness mode and no country has that yet. However, many countries are at the take off point of having good services etc.

Civilisations fall once they achieve power and security because they don't know about taking the next step, which is to spread happiness.