Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

There is only two cultures (selfish and unselfish) since from the beginning of human civilization. More marketable culture is selfish one, but more powerful and at present rising culture is unselfish one. Selfish people worship unselfish culture and maintain selfishness in each breath of life. This cunning culture is danger.

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Hello Chandra,

To a certain extent, I agree with what you've said.  However, I was looking for a more specific answer.  Maybe I should explain why.

I think most of know that no one culture is completely, 100% cognizant of the benefits that can emerge from its own evolution.  One country, culture, or society may be more socially aware while another, more ecologically aware, etc.  I think we can learn from and work to improve our own conditions by discovering the awarenesses of other people around the world.  We may even see ways to begin to work together, which (in my opinion) may speed the process of evolution for everyone without invalidating or condemning other countries, cultures, or societies.

What do you think?

~Jo~

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

J.Krishnamurti says, “The state of the mind that questions is more important than the question itself. Any question may be asked by the slavish mind, and the answer it receives will still be within the limitations of its own slavery”.

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Hi Frederik,

I apologize in advance if my next statement sounds condescending…  I'm constantly blown away by how your youth (and that of so many others here) does not limit your maturity.  It's really quite beautiful to witness.

I don't know anything of Dutch culture having never even been to Europe.  In what ways do you think The Netherlands has furthered its evolution?  Socially?  Politically?

Thanks for playing along :)

~Jo~

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Well, one thing that I think, which is very imported, that there is no dominant religion, and about 42 percent of the people here do not attain any religion at all. I think this is good, it prevents someone from assumeing answers, if he cannot find them for themselves. Making them look for the truth all by themselves. And of course The netherlands is a healthcare state, nobody really dies due to poverty. Everybody gets healthcare, and equality is a high political point. Education is good, and The dutch have the luxury to create most of their own land ( ;) though I do not think that is very relevant here) The Dutch Infrastructure is well maintained, enabling us to worry about other things then the normal issue's of daily life. And most important, Our country is ver, very free. There is no cencus whatsoever, no governement using propaganda (though they could use it), Everyone can begin a political party, as long as its objective remain within the law. (which caused debate recently) The forces of law, and politics remains beautifully seperated. There is no 1 big party, of 2 for that is. There is not such thing as only choosing between two big partys. In holland there is usually about 14 partys present in the governemnent in which 3 partys have to cooperate in order to govern, with the sufficient multitude of votes. And It isn't strange, that a new political party literally comes to power within a year, if supported by the people. Our cabinet falls, when the people dislike what they do. The dutch people has so many influence on how our nation is governend, the recent cabinet is the third in 6 years, with comming election, in two months it will be the fourth in 6 years… Holland is a people's nation of freedom. (and yes it is legal to smoke, and in the future perhaps grow pod)
But holland is crowded nation aswell, and a lot of freedom bring new problems, because law, and freedom of will, often clash into lawsuits etc. And we are still against a European constitution.

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

It is an interesting question to ask who is most evolved because it really means we have to define what “evolved” really means. For me at this point, my interest is mostly in the evoluiton of consciousness which I think of as a deeply spiritual endeavor. I have many Dutch friends and have heard about the freedoms listed below and it does seem that it is a country ripe for something new.  But in my own experience, many of these so called, “freedoms” start to break down when you start to address the really deep spiritual aspirations of human beings. That is when you start to see how attached the ego is to our individuality and sense of entitlement and what can be called “negative freedom” or the freedom to do whatever we want to do whenever we want to do it. I have been working with Andrew Cohen for 15 years now focusing on what it means to really be free, to truly evolve at the level of consciousness and in this journey a lot of the traits that I thought were positive about the way I grew up became stumbling blocks. Times when the demand for freedom at the deepest level - which means giving to my own deepest realization for the sake of what I recognized to be the most important and valuable thing I could do, suddenly came face to face with the freedom to be able to do whatever I wanted whenever I wanted to do it….and that is quite a battle ground! Because I actually think that there is a responsibility that comes with those freedoms to the rest of humanity. And the ego hates responsibility! We have the luxury, the time and the recognition of these matters in a way that most of the planet doesn't. So imagine if a country like Holland, was willing to take responsibility and embrace change and evolution for the sake of the rest of us!! In a way, what you say is true, everything external is in place for this to happen- unlike most of the world.

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

True, It is the people that make up how evolved a place is, and people, are made up, of several different individuals, each being themelves. O yes, freedom has responsibilty, and needs a feeling of 'we' and not just 'I'. But sometimes, when some thing happen, and people fight for their freedom. They Fight for their freedom, it is when you take it for granted that is dissapears. So: Enjoy your freedom each day over again :)

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Hello Gail,

I'm glad for your definition of “evolution” because I have a similar focus.  I am mostly interested in how we might inject more consciousness in the material world.  Being a very visual person, I thought that a view of how other countries or societies are doing just that might be a good place to start.  How to pull the individuals of the world up through the spiral, though, is a completely different matter…

I agree with what you've said of freedom.  It is, I think, a much misunderstood concept.  As is the case with so many paradoxes we recognize in our material realities, freedom cannot exist without responsibility.  In a sense, then, freedom is earned only within the context of responsibility ~ if we cannot be responsible, we cannot be free.

From what Frederik describes, wouldn't it be wonderful if the world could evolve to the level of Holland?

~Jo~

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Hi Jo and All,
I am sorry to be responding late- you have to be quick with these discussions or you miss a whole new discovery! I think that we are talking about creating a new culture- a culture based on the kinds of deeply spiritual values that you were describing.And I am not so sure there is any existing society that reflects this. Let's take Holland as an example. And I guess this is a question for Frederick- do the freedoms that you see in the society translate into more authentically happy, socially generous and evolved human beings?
Gail

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Frederik, I think that one of the most important aspects of social evolution is good education that is accessible by most everyone.  I'm very impressed by this observation within your own culture.  Also, the non-existence of a political party polarity is a foreign but very appealing concept to someone like me who lives in the U.S.   All of the things you describe seem to point to the Dutch really having their act together.

Overpopulation is perhaps one of the greatest stressors any culture can experience.  I believe it was Margaret Mead who concluded that individuals in a society will succumb to baser, survivalist behaviors when confronted by the stress (competition for resources) of overpopulation.  Have you noticed this on an individual level in your larger communities?

~Jo~

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Many, many researcher have done that alike research aswell. It is sometimes a bit odd, how people research something already know, just to publish. Personally I think it is ridicoulous. Selftest: But 50 mice, put them, with plenty of food though, into a too small cage with two levels. In a week, all the mice that were too many, will be dead. Not due to starvation, but killed by their fellow mice. Behold, overpopulation starts war, instinctively. In holland there is, as for where I live, no competition of resources whatsoever. We have good infrastructure to cope with the large amounts of traffic and people. And the ever Duthc respect for other, holds the peace in every day life easily. (Though, because people respect other people's silence. You will notice, strangers do not talk to eachother in the train. Or in fact anywhere else aswell. Though most people like it, and will immediatly start a friendly conversation when asked something. They will almost never initiat a casual conversation during normal daily life, respect seemingly comes at a price… :S) Large communities? The 'Randstad' is so vast there is hardly any real nature left in between, well Ironically, there is a large portion of nature in the middle. But nothing besides that. The 'green heart' is completelly surrounded by the urban area's. Being one of the largest 'Agglomerations' Of Europe it holds 7,1 Million inhabitants. Including the biggest harbour in the Europe: Rotterdam. (which grows still grows, due to land reclaimation into the see). It is vastely mulit-cultural and most if the immigrants, and refugees live there. But it is no ticking time bomb. Though there are some ghetto's. No wars are waged, no mice, killing mice.
i'd say it is pretty peacefull. (though I know this is not the case for some people out there. 

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

(according to the definition given here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_area for metropolitan area, the 'Randstad' has over 10 million inhabitants)

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Randstad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randstad

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

Frederik said: It is vastely mulit-cultural and most if the immigrants, and refugees live there. But it is no ticking time bomb. Though there are some ghetto's. No wars are waged, no mice, killing mice. i'd say it is pretty peacefull. (though I know this is not the case for some people out there. 

This is extremely, extremely impressive, Frederik!  Especially the mult-cultural part.  I wonder how it is that people of other cultures have not affected the respectful social balance in Holland…?  Here, in Hawaii, natives of our island communities have noticed the opposite effect of immigration and transplantation in recent decades.

~Jo~

Re: Who's The Most Evolved?

How, I can think of 3 reasons: One people came into a country where they had rights, and if they hadn't had them already, could aquire them through the free-political attitude, within the span of their own generation. If they weren't happy, an agreement could be formed with the already present people. Until both were happy. In a peacefull manor. Second: Most people liked the Dutch culture already when they arived, and so no trouble inheriting it. Third: There is no discrimination, nobody has different rights then someone else. But we also acknowledge people are always individually different. One with little intelligence, will probably not get the high educated job he wants. But, when he works, and learns hard. He most certainly can. I most also say, that most if the immigrants, are not immigrants any more. They are either second or third generation Immigrants, who got their native-culture from their parents at home, but their own culture from the streets and people of holland.
Another reason: Our past. Holland formed itself for the first real time, during the eighty year war. In which Holland was such a rich trading nation, that it had its glory moments of art en development, in the middle of the war with world-power spain. Even in the very beginning of the republic, it was governend by tradesman and merchants. They all spoke many languages, and were not unaquaint with foreign cultures. Morever, thei'r 'free' rule, was not conducting any censureship. Thereby in the gold age, many works were printed in holland, because in their own country, this wasn't allowed. And painters and other cultural or 'heritics' from their own country came to holland, to conduct their profession freely. So, In a small place, their was all of the sudden, a center of trade for entire Europe. Once the canal to Antwerp was blocked with toll. Holland was al-mighty. At their peak, there was even a Dutchman at the English thrown. (this Ironically was also the cause, that the dutch lost their good position in trade and power of the seas. More on this on Wikipedia)
So holland always was, a multi-cultural country of traders, do note the following. The Dutch word 'Apartheid'. Because goods and money, wasn't the only thing the dutch traded in…
But beautifully, I never heard of any grunches about that these days.
But It is of course not always sunshine and honey, There are moments of political instability (all the time) think of 'Pim Fortuyn' and 'Theo van Gogh' (no, not that van Gogh)