Cult Busting 101

Christianity. (Not joking).

Re: Cult Busting 101

In one way or another ALL the spiritual as well as “religious” movements are cult like.  In any of these applications the term Cult has to be expanded—and when you do—POW!  It encompasses all of the herd, Tribe mentalities.  Of course no one thinks that THEIR Tribe is cult like.  The cult is always in the other fellows yard.  Christianity is a cult and so is the New Age Movement.  People banding together to express their beliefs.  Probably the smallest Tribe would compose of Free Thinkers. 

Re: Cult Busting 101

Agreed, totally, Bewick.

When you browse through these pods, discussions, blogs here at zaadz, it is easy to pick up on the personal prejudices of groups gathered here, often not caring if their espoused set of beliefs can stand up to any scrutiny at all, or if they stand on any factual evidence, historically or otherwise.

In Christianity s case (as is the case for faiths/cults built on their founding member being literal and historical, such as Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, Bahai etc) as well as its many, many (even New Agey) offshoots…the claim to outright exclusivity would aleady be obliterated were there only one case of a pagan deity pre-existing Jesus whose mythic contours (essential story line) mirrored the Christ one. It would have taken only one.

Yet, there are many such cases. It has even been well argued that Christ was itself a pagan icon, and no doubt the evidence weighs in very strongly for such an argument. Certainly it has already long been demonstrated that the entire Christ myth from virgin birth on December 25th, or in historic terms, the Winter Solstice, to death and resurrection in the Springtime, was entirely a pagan construction, a mythic one. Aside from that one shattering bit of fact, we have too many others to contend with. I wont name them all here, for many large tomes have been written and what would a blogpost do that could cover thousands of pages of cogent, evidence heavy argument that Jesus was not a literal man?

Yet, even here on zaadz…..

Especially here on zaadz….

Why do we need him literal? Cant we take heart that such a myth exists to inspire us to christ like heights? Many want both. The lies with the truth. The lies are dangerous, have always been dangerous, St Francis and Teresa of Avila notwithstanding. Besides which, if you took the literal crutch away from a Francis or Teresa I have a feeling that it wouldnt cause their faith to waver one bit, for Christ lived in them, not in the dogma of the day.

Re: Cult Busting 101

Social grouping is a nature of man, like most of other creatures on this planet, we gather in pack for the reason of security.

All of our life, we are seeking for approval all most all of the time. This is the trauma that we first experienced as a small child, the parent. Approval seeking leads to other thing like a place to find commonality, like religion, society or like Zaadz.

That thirst of approval groups us together. A group will not be success if there isn't a leader or an icon. The best way to keep order to the group is to create some invisible idol so everyone can look up to. Religion and Cult are very hard to avoid. I don't like that idea of control but that is human nature.

The free thinker does not stay in a group very long. They often come and go, when they find what they need for their curiosity, they go somewhere else. Zaadz is the best place for these thinkers. I don't know of there is any cult here yet, but I do believe, Cult could not exist here on Zaadz just because there are people like us “the free thinker”. We should come up with a thread to challenge other to find cult here on Zaadz so we can go and bust them, it will be fun don't you think???

Re: Cult Busting 101

Tuan my new friend,
you must be very new to zaadz. But you are very intelligent I see. You might soon observe that many many cults and groups of people with strong cultic tendencies tend to gather at zaadz, very much so. It is very sad to me. I would like to openly discuss many things of great importance to me for I see their importance to changes we all would like to see or be part of.

But let me not presume too much; I dont really know if people here on zaadz really want a better world, or just to assuage their collective guilt at being among the richest most cancer like of humans. Pardon me if I sound harsh. Most here have a point of view that will go unchallenged even in the face of every evidence to the contrary. I hope I am not like that, I wish to learn and grow.

Sometimes :)

Re: Cult Busting 101

I have a few quotes here of Swami Vivekananda which I find appropriate.

” it's good to be born in a church, but not to die in it!”

“I'll be happy when they'll be as many churches as human beeings”

To emancipate oneself from the group, and particularly from a spiritual group (call it cult), is a painfull process, but a beautifull one. I call it “Own the stuff”. It's made, I think, of many wanderings and hardships.

I wish I was an integrist, so I'd be sure of what to do, when, and who my ennemy's were. I'd meet with friends and we'd all agree - we'd feel were the chosen one. Ah the sweetness of certainty!

I wanna be a sheep…a good one….it's way easier!

Ok. enough of regression.


Love to you

Patrick

Re: Cult Busting 101

OK Johann my friend, I like your character, very funny and a good one.

Before I go and start to bust these cult on Zaadz, I want to know what is your definition of Cult??? I'm not as intelligent as you think, I only know a few thing here and there and I'm a computer programmer, I think logically.

Re: Cult Busting 101

My definition of cult?

And before I say that, Patrick, you want to be a sheep? You do know sheep are taken to the slaugherhouse, dont you? Ergh. Dont regress too much, I like you. I dont want to eat you. (Paris Hilton on the other hand, is a whole other story…)

Mty definition of cult is…anyone who doesnt agree with me. Ahem. Actually, that would be the cultic definition of cult: Anyone who doesnt agree with my cult is a cult.

Ok enough mental asanas…

Cult for me has these characteristics:

1)Claims made that cannot be substantiated, however passed on as already substantiated.

Obviously number 1) would define practically every known religion and religious oriented buncha people….as a cult wouldnt it? Yeah, I am a hard mother to please. You mean you cant lie to me? How dare me!

So we have these 'truth claims', and zero evidence for them, or better still…..

2)Claims made that creatively alter facts or invent facts in order to substantiate them
 
Again, who the hell do I think I am demanding that someone should provide some evidence that corresponds with what really happens? (Oh, my own silly theories would be hanging by this one….argh, I can feel the noose tightening!)

3) Ignores all contrary evidence

So cult would also include some science, as well. Some scientists push a theory or POV despite heavy contrary evidence or facts that shoot holes in their POV, this isnt just limited to what someone like Ken Wilber would call “amber color, mythic membership, conformist level'.

At the same time it seems to be very true as well, that cults create or draw from pre existing myths, and say that they are literally true. So Jesus, or Moses really existed…. I have this feeling that in a hundred years or so, People will be talking about Harry Potter as if he was a real person, and the few who say that he didnt really exist but was only a fictitious character would be heavily marginalized and rejected by society.

Hugh numbers at zaadz for example believe that Jesus was historical. I think that if he wasnt a real historica figure, it would shatter many people here. And I ask : WHY should it matter? It only matters if one's mindset is deeply fundamentalistic, cultic, robotic.

It wouldnt have shattered Thomas Merton. It wouldnt matter to Christian mystics like Thomas Keating one whit I think, if Jesus was entirely allegorical. Same for a true Buddhist; what if the Buddha wasnt really historical? Would it matter? It doesnt at all really, except of course, it does.

You also get these “Great White Brotherhood” channelled beings, including historical Jesus, Buddha, Tara, Quan Yin, and a whole host of Archangels and some fictionally derived characters that zaadzster take very seriously….similar to this cult is the “Law of Attraction” who say their law is scientifically proven when it is not, as well as the “crystal power” zaadzsters who say the same thing about crystals, and the 'water power' or 'thoughts affecting water'….

Now the last one, I myself wanted to believe Masaru Emoto and his water experiment. I cried when I saw his beautiful photographs, but I was fooled as many who believed him. I was very saddened. But I realized I rather know the truth of this and every other matter. (Here is another link about Masaru Emoto http://www.is-masaru-emoto-for-real.com/ )

Most people at zaadz would tell me I am wrong, or ignore me altogether. So be it. Most are like crazy fundamentalist Christians or Muslims or Buddhists….. different Emperors but same no clothes scam….

So why do they continue believing? Why not investigate? Are we all going to “change the world” like this? What the hell are we changing it  to?

Re: Cult Busting 101

Holly… S***!!! I thought your definition is only a few paragraphs like the Webster explains. Before I share some of my view on the Cult subject, don't talk about my babe like that, Paris is my girl. She is the good example for the definition of “Dumb Blond” and “Airhead”. Without her these words has no meaning, so don't you dare LOL!!!

I can see that you love facts and quite a skeptic you are. It's really good if you choose to view the world that way. I used to have the same frame of mind. I have a very logical mind (that's why I become a computer programmer). If some thing does not satisfy my logic, I discard it immediately.

And then one day all that logic went out of the window when I see a broader view of the world. What we know currently is very limited. We are blind to all. Just like when Galileo introduce the concept “The Earth is Round”. Human mind wasn't complicate enough to approve that claim. Our mind currently is very limited. We could not see beyond the box just because we have FEAR and very much the same then. Thanks goodness for the adventurer like Galileo, without him, the brave one, our view is still as narrow as ever were.

Please don't misunderstand me, I didn't say you have narrow mind, I only say we all have very limited knowledge of what is real.

So what is real? I have no clue just like you. Beyond our senses everything will not be real, is that true? There they are see, hear, smell, taste, and touch. Are they all what we now? Our reasoning mind cannot comprehend anything beyond that. Facts are what those senses are. Beyond them there are no facts.

Now, if we are brave enough to go beyond the box, we may discover a thing or two that call truth. Doubt is good, but somehow it does not work for me because it put me in a box that call narrow perspective, kinda like see the coin only one side. Our judgmental mind is very good of doubting. Without judgement there is no doubt. Acceptance kills judgement. And acceptance is like seeing the coin with both sides at the same time. This is why people join the cult.

You might say acceptance is bad. It is bad because it makes us loose our security and our control. Security and Control are the foundation of our being. See what happen to the world? All the bad stuff happens just in the name of security and control. So what good is it? Not a very good one I don't think. Acceptance is like jumping off the cliff. Falling of the cliff might be a greatest thrill in our life but fear of loosing control prohibits us from doing that. You may say “are you stupid, you'll be dead”, but what if there is no dead, dead is only a transition from one form to another, wouldn't it be another great experience beside jumping off the cliff?

So, let me stop here before I write a book. To my opinion, leave those cults alone. They may have some good view that we do not comprehend. Who can say definitely what is right and what is wrong in this world? I can't.

Re: Cult Busting 101

Even if nobody but me is reading this now, I will be performing surgery on the above post. I have no idea why ;P

Seriously though, I m one to believe that critical thinking is not a disease of the mind. Without which we really couldnt tell any truth from falsehood.

Here are some of the more devastating flaws in the above argument:

Tuan wrote: I can see that you love facts and quite a skeptic you are. It's really good if you choose to view the world that way.

Firstly, I can not be called a skeptic for highlighting as an example of fraud, the case of Masaru Emoto. I am merely someone who does not enjoy being lied to, same for Christianity's many fraudelent claims..



I used to have the same frame of mind. I have a very logical mind (that's why I become a computer programmer). If some thing does not satisfy my logic, I discard it immediately.

And then one day all that logic went out of the window when I see a broader view of the world.


Were Tuan about to introduce a more intuitive or holistic way of grasping truths about a thing, I d be here rooting for the argument he put forth. (One of the most amazing things about true holistic thinking is that it does what logic does, but in a lightning fast speed, grasping wholes and making vast leaps of connections. )

But this is not what he had in mind it seems:

What we know currently is very limited. We are blind to all. Just like when Galileo introduce the concept “The Earth is Round”. Human mind wasn't complicate enough to approve that claim. 

Any truth claim can either be verified or refuted by using factual or evidence-based enquiry. Masaru Emoto is not to Galileo Galilei - you cannot verify Emoto's claims the same way you can verify Galileo's. You cannot verify the historicity of Christ the same way you can verify states like waking, sleeping, dreaming, and nondual.



Our mind currently is very limited. We could not see beyond the box just because we have FEAR and very much the same then. Thanks goodness for the adventurer like Galileo, without him, the brave one, our view is still as narrow as ever were.

Emoto is a fraud, Galileo was not. That is the biggest difference between the two. To adequate cultic truth claims, the ones that are either baseless and worthless with a detailed and grounded investigation into the truth of anything is usually the workings of uncritical thinking. So Tuan is saying I should accept any truth claim foistered onto me without proper investigation. That would make me closer to a Galileo? Absurd in the extreme!

Please don't misunderstand me, I didn't say you have narrow mind, I only say we all have very limited knowledge of what is real.

“Please dont misunderstand me, I didnt say you are having sex with your own mother, I only say please try to date women who you are not related to” -

Same structure of sentence, but see how offensive… :)

I wonder what asssumptions were made about me to bring about such assertions?

You might say acceptance is bad. It is bad because it makes us loose our security and our control. Security and Control are the foundation of our being. See what happen to the world? All the bad stuff happens just in the name of security and control. So what good is it? Not a very good one I don't think. Acceptance is like jumping off the cliff. Falling of the cliff might be a greatest thrill in our life but fear of loosing control prohibits us from doing that. You may say “are you stupid, you'll be dead”, but what if there is no dead, dead is only a transition from one form to another, wouldn't it be another great experience beside jumping off the cliff?

Ok, dude - you jump :)
And after you die, tell us what it's like.
“Falling off the cliff might be a(sic) greatest thrill of our life…”??? Am I the only one reading your sentences - one non sequitur after one non-sequitur and remembering this is how Mother used to warp our minds when we were 3 years old? (Ok that came in from left-field…)
But seriously,
it really does pay great dividends to examine the manner in which we approach these subjects. Why, just because they are above logic* does not mean that it is wise to throw discernment and good jugdement (or good spelling, even…)
out the window (together with a few babies and alot of bathwater…)
 







*(seemingly, but not really so - the whole point of the aha! or insight experience is that in one lightning moment, entire true paths of the most beautiful logic can be laid out, e.g. the Tao Te Ching, which I suspect was received in one flash of great insight, and then could be written in simple language, from what I can only presume to be a third tier point of view of reality…)

Re: Cult Busting 101

“Cult” is usually meant in a disparaging sense to imply a secret or closed group with limited membership and mysterious beliefs. Religious scholars point out that the term has become almost meaningless, since its modern use reflects a growing prejudice against all religions. For example, a government report in Belgium labeled the Hasidic Jews and even the YWCA as “cults.” The French Parliament included Baptists on their list.

Religions that grow and endure do so to the degree that they assist people in their spiritual lives. To fulfill this role, the scripture of all religions are fully codified, broadly published and available to anyone, and its churches and missions are always open to the public.

I have had the pleasure of meeting people on Zaadz with the common denominator of SURVIVAL as a spiritual being and most of my friends I have had communications with from their various faiths that work for them I have respect for and we both gain in showing that respect and learning how to expand with each other.

What is true is true for you and when you take that away you have lost everything.  If someone can't think with something it is best to get the truth and be able to demonstrate it.

We are faith!!!

Re: Cult Busting 101

What is true is true for you and when you take that away you have lost everything.

And when you take this one in the context of seeking the truth, meaning I guess, that which is true, then we are in a pickle. TO quote New Thought teacher Ernest Holmes (more or less) 'Many have believed the world was flat, but that didnt flatten out the world”. I d hate to think that cults believe otherwise.

ONe could infer that your post suggests that respect be due paid to dogma (and the dogmatists that prmulgate them) that do not respect us as a person. I wonder why I should extend that obedience to others who demand it of me. I often get the exact sentence thrown at me when I get awfully close to demonstrating to such dogmatists that their 'truths' are anything but,” Let us agree to disagree, shall we?” Stalemated when they cant back up their “the world is flat/my path is the only correct one/etc.” rigidity/faulty thinking/evangelical outreach.

Religions that grow and endure do so to the degree that they assist people in their spiritual lives. To fulfill this role, the scripture of all religions are fully codified, broadly published and available to anyone, and its churches and missions are always open to the public.

Not altogether true, no. Religions are all built like a Machiavellian fortress; inner levels know more than outer levels do, which nkow nothing of these inner beliefs and movements. Very cultic behaviour. Movements within movements.