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When Positive Isnt So Positive

C A M E L O T [no longer around] said Aug 18, 2007, 5:23 AM:
 

We are all 'positive thinkers' arent we?

Or we should be, we tell ourselves. How much better would life be if we could all just think more positively. Is this true?

I just watched a goofy G rated movie (I think it was G rated), License to Wed, starring the off the wall Robin Williams (he shares my birthday). Scene after scene as Father Frank he disrobes the soon to be newly weds facade of niceness and “positive thoughts” about one another and their parents in law. In one telling scene Father Frank digs into the bridegroom to cough up his real feelings about his fiance's parents…..swept under rug feelings. Things he d rather not even think about.

So if positive thinking itself is wonderful, why was there a wall dug deep into these characters, walls so high and run so deep that they nearly destroyed the relationship and marriage?
 

Re: When Positive Isnt So Positive

Symbolist Artist [no longer around] said Aug 19, 2007, 2:19 PM:
 

Somebody just put a knife on my throat and told me participate in the pod or else! Well, I'm not sure I felt so happy about that but I'll try and take it with humour. It's a funny thing how all the wonderful forums out there in cyberspace start to loom over one's head and demand more and more… more people invite you as friends (how flattering!) and invite you to enjoy conversations (how fascinating and maybe I could learn more… and more…), and more and more people ask you to do this do that, then the world will be a better place for us all… I find myself so burdened with all this responsibilty that I simply freeze. Already the world is an overwhelming and scary place… and yes clowns can be nightmare stuff like my boyfriend said. Be happy, be cheerful, or else! We call the famous American style smile a Pepsodent Smile. What does it hide? Does anyone know? And ironically, I'm off to the US to check that out. To see what good it might have in store for me. Take the good and leave the bad. What else can we do in a world that is so rotten from deep inside? I guess the old cliché that just take care of your own rot first and then think of that of others holds true on some level… though it's in the contact with other people's rot that we really get to see our own, as I guess Robin Williams might have found out.
 

Re: When Positive Isnt So Positive

C A M E L O T [no longer around] said Aug 20, 2007, 3:45 AM:
 

I see that whole “postive thinking” philosophy, put a smiley sticker on it, and shut up, willya? attitude here on zaadz too, dont you, vivi mari?

(Right now I m getting the word that people are waiting. Waiting to see if they have to pay SUBSCRIPTION to remain as members of the Body of Zaadz. Instead of waiting, I just post.)

So where were we? I was here in front of a public computer. What about you? Irritating arent I? :)

I liked the movie. It really showed how veneer-like a great deal of these socialized activities are. We shove and shove and shove under that rug, all our unkempt feelings, you know, the bad ones? the irritations, and hurts, and angers, and envies, and fears? And just put on that smiley face. TO get along. To get what we want. Except that when we get the approval, the “gee, you re just swell!” it doesnt even feel good. It is just, well, fake.


Father Frank wants to get to the roots. Yank out the bad weeds. So unpleasant, Bad man, Father Frank. Bad man.


Ironically, bad man Father Frank grows the young couple up into people that are authentic and real. Not “nice”. Love in the real sense of the word isnt always “nice”, but it isnt manipulative either. Often one can be 'un-nice” in an effort to manipulate another to one's dictates. Or use nice as well, for that matter.


So should we all be more like what Father Frank would want us to be? Who we really are underneath it all? Warts and all? Fragrances that are not store bought? Attitudes not donned and purchased from Unity Church, or the Secret movie, or dictated to us from the Great White Brotherhood or space aliens saying they are here to help us achieve or realize our Godhood? (If we re God, we re God, if we re not, we re not…..who s to say?)

Me, I m more concerned with getting to “real”
Really. While not wanting to go out of my way to harm -
Just being me.
Whatever that is. What say you?
 

Re: When Positive Isnt So Positive

C A M E L O T [no longer around] said Aug 20, 2007, 4:30 AM:
 

On the downside……

Father Frank can be fascistic, a total control freak even. Goes with the territory I guess - he is after all , a Church Pastor. While he is “progressive” in his understanding of relational psych. Frank also tends to be unwaveringly conformist in his fundie oriented church. The praying over the kneeling dude scene was too hilarious, couldnt get enough of that Pentecostal shit! :)
 

Re: When Positive Isnt So Positive

Symbolist Artist [no longer around] said Aug 20, 2007, 12:58 PM:
 
There's some technical trouble here at Zaadz today so I hope I'm getting through.

Anway, I was going to put a smiley on my last post but I'm glad I didn't, heh :-)! That's of course a way of making sure that nobody thinks ill of you. I think it's easy to smile and pretend that the world is a great place to live but I don't see it as a very compassionate way of being. Seeing reality for what it is will for sure make us shed quite a few tears before we can get to terms with it all. People confuse “positive mindedness” with a real sense of joy and effort to overcome obstacles. These are in my opinion two totally different things. It's not easy to spot which a person has gone for until you know them really well. I find that very scary. You go into a relationship with someone who appears to be a happy person who will support you in feeling better about life, and it turns out they make your life into a waking nightmare because they won't allow for problems in the relationship. I've seen this so many times and it has made me vary…

Who can you really trust? How can you really know? And still, you have to keep being constructive, optimistic and trusting. Because if you don't then you might as well go and throw yourself off a bridge this very moment. There's no point in leading a life as a bitter and suspiscious minded person, anyone can see that is not going to take you anywhere. Every time I encounter something deeply disappointing I try and be mindful about it, and hope this was the last time. It may be or it may not. This is one of the biggest lessons I think. To try and accept that you may be crapped on all over again, over and over. One has to settle in one's mind somehow what sort of attitude will take one the furthest. This is deep and scary work and only for the really strongminded, I think. There's a pod here that's called The Shadow Knows, but not many people are interested in that sort of work. I've however learnt my lesson and don't participate much elsewhere if I suspect that I will be labeled as difficult, opiniated and on the wrong track. Simply because it's very stressful to have to face other people's self-righteous attitude and try and sort out one's own attitude about it all. There's got to be a balance somehow, some rhyme and reason in our undertakings here in this world. That's hard to gain! We tend as humans to go from one extreme to the other. That's what I think in any case. People aren't fundamentally bad but watch out for the egotripping mentality that has made the world into the mess it is right now, right?

Unfortunately I haven't seen that particular movie but if it's a new one I'm sure I will eventually. Robin Williams tends to play the empathic parts - after all he's cancerian as us .-). Sharing is surely more blissful than simple pleasing, however it seems to me that people often think I want something from them when all I want is to share and feel an empathic connection. Good advice is great but surely an adult knows it isn't easy to come by! 
 

Re: When Positive Isnt So Positive

Patrick [no longer around] said Aug 21, 2007, 12:37 PM:
 

I think there are a few ways to God.

- one is the observation of positive and negative. We stand aside both of them, identifiying with “I”- not whishing for + nor -. We find that attitude in all non-dualist paths. God is seen as a non-God, or like the witness, no shape, all pervading. It's find in Zen, advaita vedanta and the like.

- another path deals with God as a person. It's focused on the positive side of things(in India it's Bhakti vedanta, devotionnal path in christianity, politically correct in the US…LOL, and New Age). Some focus on the negative side of the Godhead, like in the Indian Tantras (Kali, some Buddhists).

So you have polarized path, and “beyond polarity” paths…Which is right?

I think we can all beneficiate from both. Sometimes during our lives we may tread polarized path and sometimes beyond polarity path.

But we should also consider our nature. If it is more emotional a polarity path is said to be best suited, if less emotional a non polarized path is best.

As for me, sometimes I feel there is no God, sometimes I feel he is me and sometimes I feel he is outside of me. All feels good, and the connection seems to be what is important.

What I dislike is when I feel I'm me…oups….still a lot of work !


Much love, light, bliss, angels, upon you,

Much black holes, dark matter, death and catastrophies upon you,

That makes it eaven I think….Nobody should be hurt then…LOL

Patrick
 

Re: When Positive Isnt So Positive

Symbolist Artist [no longer around] said Aug 21, 2007, 1:57 PM:
 
In theory I think it's easy to argue against dualist thinking. The Buddhist philosopher Nagarjuna's idea was that the dualistic way of thinking is incorrect, but preferring the non-dualistic way is incorrect as well. In fact, he continues the reasoning in this way; it's not either-or or both-and, nor neither-nor nor both and, nor either-or or both and as well as neither-nor nor both and, and so on… infinitely. Only the mind conceives of reality in a dualistic way and is able to imagine a paradox, but that doesn't of course mean that it's the nature of true being. In practice, though, we all have to struggle quite a bit with the reality of the mind. A sense of oneness is not easy at hand. I suppose if you live in that sort of bliss you don't really have a need to be here anymore. What I don't like about the whole scheme is the feeling that there is no right or wrong, only a “stage” with actors playing out a roleplay. I feel that we have to be in this play as long as we are naturally prone to it, and resisting it while nature is still taking its course is only creating more unhappiness. It's a weird paradoxical situation in which sometimes you don't have so much say in the matter, yet at the same time the true you is at the bottom of it all. So I think that if we accept the game as such, it requires that we embrace reality as such. I don't think any religious schemes can really help much when we are right in the middle of it all… except a little faith and hope that we need to survive. But then again, we each have a path to walk. I can't take on the role of the judger and say that anybody else's way is worse than mine (other than in weak moments in the real life, heh, which is basically what we are trying to bring out here in this thread, I think). All I can do is try and navigate the best I can so that I do more good than harm to myself and the environement. I guess?
 

Re: When Positive Isnt So Positive

C A M E L O T [no longer around] said Aug 22, 2007, 4:57 AM:
 

Zaadzsters not interested in working on their shadow stuff? Is this possible?

Are you interested in working with your Shadow?

Finally, am I interested in working with my Shadow?

(The last one - I tend to know what irks me, and where in that I secretly desire to be like to ones who irk me. I m not really hiding alot from myself, I tend to be a real motherfucker of a detective with all my hidden agendas, I know where I d love to power trip, rule the whole world,have all the women I want, and some of the dudes too….. so does that makes me 'the monster', or does that make the people who keep denying their shadow wants and keep projecting their baddie-stuff onto others, say, like you or onto me?)
 

Re: When Positive Isnt So Positive

C A M E L O T [no longer around] said Aug 22, 2007, 4:59 AM:
 

The last post was supposed to appear after vivi-marie s second latest post,  so that it will not look so alarmingly non sequiter.

Ah,  what the heck. :)
 

Re: When Positive Isnt So Positive

Symbolist Artist [no longer around] said Aug 22, 2007, 12:19 PM:
 

Ok, I guess we are all monsters to a great extent since we all carry that crap around, and it comes out in one way or another whether we like it or not. Right? Well looking at that crap doesn't sound all that cheerful, does it? So who would honestly like to do that? Who in their sane mind? I'm not really sane so I can do it without having too many worries - they already gave up on me and decided I'm beyond the redemption of cognitive psychology, LOL LOL!
 

Re: When Positive Isnt So Positive

Patrick [no longer around] said Aug 22, 2007, 2:41 PM:
 

The shadow has to be balanced on all four quadrants.

I mean that I used to think I was a monster 'cause I feel desire at each beautiful woman I see. But then, I took into account the fact that one of natures goal is to reproduces itself, from galaxies to human beeings.

So that connected me to something else. Is that a way to disown my desire? I don't think so, 'cause the desire to detach from that desire is still here and I work on it. But guilt is not anymore a heavy burden.

What do U think?
 

Re: When Positive Isnt So Positive

C A M E L O T [no longer around] said Aug 23, 2007, 4:08 AM:
 

Patrick, he wrote:
I mean that I used to think I was a monster 'cause I feel desire at each beautiful woman I see. But then, I took into account the fact that one of natures goal is to reproduces itself, from galaxies to human beeings.

You feel a deep stirring within your bodymind when you come into contact with who you perceive as beautiful, who is sexually attractive to you, am I right? Wow, how radical! ;P

Actually, how common a miracle is that. You saw (co-enacted) beauty. You acknowledge your honest desire. Truth. You wished to act in ways that at the very, very least was neither harmful to yourself, to that woman, nor to anyone else. Goodness.

I m not sure if a 'beautiful woman' would appear so to deeply homosexual men (or merely wounded and therefore mysogynistic men), or women who are deeply insecure and competitive with such women. They may perceive instead a mass of ugliness where you perceived desirable beauty.

What does a 'normal'' person feel when he/she sees a sunset, a  kitten, a picture of Mount Fuji? Oh, sure you might say, but nobody wants to sex with those things!

So we see the darkness lies in our perception of beauty inspiring sexual feelings in us. Is that true? Is sexual desire dark?

And to ask you about your first remark. How is the shadow to be balanced in all four quadrants? A person can only accept a socially unacceptable part of himself/herself (LR), but very privately, for in some LR worlds, you might get hanged, shot, or at the very least marginalized out of existence for openly admitting to certain shadow elements within yourself!
 

Re: When Positive Isnt So Positive

C A M E L O T [no longer around] said Aug 23, 2007, 4:14 AM:
 

vivi mari she wrote: 

 Well looking at that crap doesn't sound all that cheerful, does it? So who would honestly like to do that? Who in their sane mind?

Me in my sane mind, and you in your sane mind.

Pleasant it isnt, no. Are New Age people like people who only want a clean house, but abhor housecleaning? (Gee, enough about ME! Stop talking about ME like that! Heh)
 

Re: When Positive Isnt So Positive

Symbolist Artist [no longer around] said Aug 23, 2007, 8:43 AM:
 
Could be. I think most people want a shortcut to happiness. Rather have a maid clean the house than do it themselves. Or then shuffle the dirt underneath the carpet, lol! I don't particularly like scrubbing behind the fridge or the oven but I feel accomplished when I have, and at least there's the idea of cleanliness to enjoy even if I can't see it… strange, huh? But maybe it's not just an idea, as in all areas of life there's an energy too. When I first heard of Feng Shui I thought it was odd because I did most of those things automatically already. Intuitively, I suppose. Except close the toilet lid so the energy wouldn't disappear through the water outlet, haha. That is rather extreme, right? Right??

Hm, sexual desire… well I wish I had more to say about that but it all seems rather odd to me. It's a form of energy that has not been much present in my life. I don't think I've exactly denied it, on the contrary. It just hasn't had much of a place. So surely we cannot condemn someone just because they have some desire or sense some energy that has a place in their existence, or condemn someone to whom these things don't appear the same? I'm not sure it has so much to do with beauty or ugliness per se. Or what do you think? Sometimes people think that everyone is terribly sexual but those who don't acknowledge it are in denial. You yourself only knows what is going on and why. There's surely a good reason why things are a certain way. What's the lesson all about?

Most of us don't want to create more chaos in a world that is already overwhelming. So we try and restrain ourselves. That's probably a good thing and part of growing up. Sometimes we don't learn things early when we are supposed to, but later. All the same, we learn to interact with others in a way that is not harmful to ourselves nor the other. I'm sure most people find this difficult. I personally believe in the middle way so I would go for a certain balance where I try and see how I can retrain myself to have a more useful  and constructive attitude about my desires and needs but without trying to eliminate them by force. It's all part of a bigger picture anyway….
  Coyoteyogi : An Unusual Suspect

Re: When Positive Isnt So Positive

Coyoteyogi said Aug 24, 2007, 7:46 AM:
 

Hello everyone,
first post to this thread and pod

Positive thinking.
  I was just outside taking our Irish terrier Deva for a walk. I was thinking about the issues of positive thinking, LOA, creativity, the art of making things happen etc. The image that came to mind is that positive thoughts are like foot prints. It is much easier to see their traces after they have been thunk. Thinking is much more a spontaneous event in the mind. Thoughts come and go. Mostly they go when they get bumped off the screen of consciousness by the next thought. Much of my thinking seems to be a single stream of verbal texts, images, desires, emotions and feelings. The stream is continuous and shows up whether I will it to or not. I can play in the stream for awhile and “think positive” but sooner or later my attention wanders off and the thought stream resumes its course through my mind. I don't think that “playing in the stream” as a way of changing the content of the stream itself is very effective. In my experience it is pretty much worthless. I'm thinking here of the Science of Mind school and the teachings of Ernest Holmes. I have no affinity for it. It may work for some but carries no heat, resonance or oommph for me.
  On the other hand I know that “self talk” is important. If in the stream there are pieces of debris like “You're a failure” or “This will never work.” those thoughts have an impact on the quality of life and the risks and creativity that I'm willing to explore. Left untended such thoughts can deepen into depression. In an interesting way they function as both cause and effect in a dynamic system of feedback and confirmation.
  So I believe that self talk cannot be tackled directly with any degree of consistency or success. I see it more as one of many indicators of the current state of my psyche. It's like a vivid dream, sense of connection or even “psychic fever”. If my self talk is positive then I'm attneding to those parts of my life that contribute to a positive experience moment to moment. Those tend to be: diet, meditation, exercise, service, participation in community and creativity. Embarrasingly it also fluctuates with the daily performance of the Red Sox pitching staff. I hate the fact that my mood can be affected by their giving up 3 runs in the ninth inning but I've seen it happen. It is the price I pay for being a sports fan and I recognize that it is a pretty steep price.
  Looking back at the sand image. What do my footprints reveal? Plodding along? Skipping?
Partnered? Facing backwards?
  My 2 cents.
c
 

Re: When Positive Isnt So Positive

C A M E L O T [no longer around] said Aug 27, 2007, 5:08 AM:
 

Helo coyote yogi and many thanks for reaching out to everyone here.

I do know what you mean Thinking is much more a spontaneous event in the mind. Thoughts come and go. Mostly they go when they get bumped off the screen of consciousness by the next thought. Much of my thinking seems to be a single stream of verbal texts, images, desires, emotions and feelings. The stream is continuous and shows up whether I will it to or not. I can play in the stream for awhile and “think positive” but sooner or later my attention wanders off and the thought stream resumes its course through my mind. I don't think that “playing in the stream” as a way of changing the content of the stream itself is very effective. In my experience it is pretty much worthless. I'm thinking here of the Science of Mind school and the teachings of Ernest Holmes. I have no affinity for it. It may work for some but carries no heat, resonance or oommph for me.

And you are still able to see the other side of the coin, yet do not wish to attach too much metaphysical importance to 'postive' self talk. I can understand that.
 

Re: When Positive Isnt So Positive

Symbolist Artist [no longer around] said Aug 27, 2007, 8:05 AM:
 
Thinking in terms of changing the cognitive directions of the mind implies that there is a solid self that is able to control what's going on.

While I think our not so solid self can do some things to improve the mind, I also think that the more we are connected to the spirit, the less we have a say in the matter. I don't want to get into the techiqualities of this connection. I personally feel however, that my mind pretty much does what it has to do in order to live through this life in a certain predetermined way. I don't personally feel that I have many choices in life. Maybe somebody else's life is freer. Maybe other people are supposed to explore the power of the mind. I feel that I know the power of the mind but in this life I have to try and contain it so it doesn't throw my physical existence overboard. I have some karma to play out, stuff to take care of. And it's hard to love a chore. I can only hope that once the house is cleaner, the air starts to feel less stuffy and there will be more room for play.
 

Re: When Positive Isnt So Positive

C A M E L O T [no longer around] said Aug 28, 2007, 1:49 AM:
 

How do you know for sure what you say is true? Is it true?

What would be the case if they werent true? How would you feel then?
 

Re: When Positive Isnt So Positive

Symbolist Artist [no longer around] said Aug 28, 2007, 2:07 PM:
 

That's a good question. It's a feeling I've arrived at having searched the books and not find any satisfactory answers as to why I feel I don't have much choice. If on the contrary I did have more choice, well… I'm sorry I can't really imagine that because each time I've felt I had one, I was fretting for no reason at all. That's because the choice seems all to obvious once it's made, and I kind of knew it already but was fighting it. But kind of only, since if the impulse had been stronger the clarity of the whole situation would have been more obvious to me. I feel like I'm groping in the dark in order to find the items that are already in the room. Doesn't anybody else feel that way? How do YOU feel about free choice? Is it good for you or bad for you, is it of any value at all, is it an illusion or not? Would be curious to hear.

Sure exploring the idea of “what if not” can be helpful. What if I did have all the choice in the world, being a good example. Hmmmmm. Give examples from real life. Because I can only see it as a possibility in another dimension…
 

Re: When Positive Isnt So Positive

C A M E L O T [no longer around] said Sep 5, 2007, 4:03 AM:
 

Can't say I know of any right now.

Perhaps you d like to have a go at it.