Christian friends and Yes music

Hi Jack-

Your comment  “i've never given up my deep appreciation for yes music (despite my ‘christian‘ friends‘ admonitions)” reminded me of an experience of my own.

It was about '77, '78. The most glorious and spiritual Yes album (to me) was usually on my turntable: Going For The One. Being young and naive, I found myself becoming good friends with four Christian teenagers. (I prefer not to mention the Christian cult that they were associated with to protect the innocent - me!)

It was either “Turn of the Century” or “Wonderous Stories” that I played for a Christian teenager one time. I thought surely this person will hear the beauty, the joy, and the intelligence within. But, oh, “we were so naïve then.” I think the objection ended up being that it was not “Biblical.” My naïve, internal reaction: hurt, disappointed. I thought, “As good as these people are, I am not going to give up my Yes music!”

Thankfully, that was where the line was. Back then, I needed a line, and Yes was it!

Re: Christian friends and Yes music

you have touched on one of my favorite topics, and i'm not sure where to begin.

first i'll say that i only claim to understand my interpretation of what christianity and yes music are. after many forays into both cults (lol), it has become clear to me that each individual has there own interpretation. and i seem to get many believers angry with my interpretations. i don't claim intention to do so, but maybe it is there, in my desire to raise consciousness by challenging belief systems.

i can relate with your statements about (my) naivity, not only then, but even still. no regrets, as i can only do my best, given the totally unique mystery of the moment.

at the risk of being pre-judged, i'll mention the christian group i was in. it was the children of god. they are very loving and very grounded in their belief system, and it was 1975, so the music i was sharing was gates of delirium. (lol)

Re: Christian friends and Yes music

:^)

“…i seem to get many believers angry …”  Apparently Jack, my passion for the spiritualitry contained within Yes music can cause anger in believers also, and I am confident that I too do not indent to cause anger. I seek to join and find common ground. Hense my feeling of disappointment. But I don't pretend to kid either…I also have an ego. I also want them to “see the light.”

“as i can only do my best, given the totally unique mystery of the moment.” Well said Jack, we are only doing our best. I'm with you, no regrets.

OK, I'll reflect…”The Way” was my partricular “cult.” But God bless you Jack, they too were “very loving and very grounded in their belief system.” I am grateful for their presence in my life. I wouldn't change a thing!

Re: Christian friends and Yes music

The Way?!?!?!?! LOL wimps!!! ours was the one true way. all my friends agreed. *snicker*

whoring for god was the only way to please ‘im. : )

actually the reason i was with this group was that the strongest synchronicities of my life lined up.

””…i seem to get many believers angry …” Apparently Jack, my passion for the spirituality contained within Yes music can cause anger in believers also, and I am confident that I too do not indent to cause anger. I seek to join and find common ground. Hence my feeling of disappointment. But I don't pretend to kid either…I also have an ego. I also want them to “see the light.””

recently, i'm working with folks who do shadowwork. and i think that this is very profound work for people are caught up in thinking they see the light and want to share it.  well, for me it is powerful. shadowworkers (or my understanding of them) look at the patterns in our lives (like angering folks that i ‘want' to honor) that appear to get in the way of what we (think we) want. then depending on how my mind wants to process the shadow, i try to find a way to release the pattern, so that i can change my perception. or at least i experiment at it.

it is the single most effective new tool i've found in the last decade. after decades of relaxation techniques and dwelling in the light.  i see it as embracing my shadow and my light, which feels like the only authentic way to truly become one with 'God'.  however, my shadows are a tricky sons of a bitches, and so i continue to co-research them.

Re: Christian friends and Yes music

That's really cool…”embracing my shadow and my light…” Good for you for getting a good handle on your patterns that “get in the way” of what you want, or your good, or whatever you want to call it. Good name “Shadowwork.”

Re: Christian friends and Yes music

with me, since i've felt this need to connect to the Whole infinite universe, to touch that shadow is kind of scary. what with all the dictators, mass murderers and slave traders of the earth and the universe. shiva and satan being some of the names of this Immense shadow. owning up and embracing these energies in myself, is scary and empowering. and from my understanding the only way to become One with the universe. becoming One also means embracing the Pain of those who suffer. but you already know that. : )

like marianne williamson's piece,

“we are not fearful that we are powerless, we are fearful that we are powerful beyond our wildest dreams.”

not sure if that's a exact quote, but that is the spirit i got off of it.

so it is cool, because it's ice cold and hot as the sun, at the same time.  altogether it's the Love that shines thru, but some of the colors of Love aren't la-la-la-love.

Re: Christian friends and Yes music

YES was it for me, too. before and after my hardcore 'christian' years. i am thankful for my time there, tho i missed out on the era where free sexual love was practiced. they really ingrained in me the practice of listening to the inner voice. that inner voice, which assured me that it was Jesus, led me to a God that was much bigger than the one they seemed to worship. a god that embrace all paths like the sun shines on all beings.

think of that!!!!!stars shine so completely that thousands of light-years away to a minuscule speck of a planet, to a miniscule speck of my eyes it is ever present. so first you've got to get the scope of this, a light-SECOND is 286,000 miles, the earth is 8,000 miles in circumference, so roughly 36 times around the earth every second. times 60 sec, times 60min, times 24 hours, times 365 days, times 1000's of year. now that's how far that light travels and further. and then think of the sphere that would generate and every point as small as my eyes on that sphere is still getting light.

anyway, now Infinity is my God. and infinity is big in so many ways. in infinity, that star example is crushed into a nothing, into an atom-sized prick of light in another world just as big as the star is to me. and over and over and over again each concept of infinity is dwarfed by Infinity. and that is just one direction of the physical dimension. the other direction of the physical is to the miniscule, again, we can (well we can't) magnify infinitely small. i think you can understand that the atomic level is so small that we really have no possible way to grasp as to have small it is, and then in Infinity further and further magnification (if it were possible) would reveal further and further, infinite complexity. and that is only the physical dimension.

then there is time, without any beginning. scientists used to say it began with the big bang, but now they say that the big bang repeats itself over and over and over, etc. and that is only one direction of time, turning to the miniscule increments of time there is no smallest moment. in a nanosecond, only 1/100000000 of a second an infinity of events happen.

and then there are the dimensions of consciousness, which are ….

and then infinite other dimensions.

Infinity, my God

yes, and christianity, and many (infinite?) other sources have blessed and cursed me, if i think of it that way.

but now i want to share a view of the bible that i feel for me is The critical enlightenment spark of my life.  this is not something anyone else has to believe, and for truth i only half believe it. 

in genesis, the story of the garden of eden says that eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil is what got adam and eve kicked out.  it says that it was a disobedience of god that was what got them kicked out, but i think that the crucial point is that the 'fruit' of that tree is what did it.  i recognized that eating that 'fruit' means judging things as good and evil, and even as good and bad.  so when we divide things into good and bad, we divide god into two.  then we say god is good and the devil is evil.  and then everything is not god, and That is what kicks us out of the garden of eden.

so the whole bible is only stories of people out of touch with the one true god, because they keep eating from this 'tree'.

now a paradox arises, if saying this is good and this is bad is wrong (bad), then we are still eating of the fruit if we say, i'm not going to judge things as good or bad, because that's bad.  it's not bad to eat from the 'tree'.  so… what is the solution?

Re: Christian friends and Yes music

well, you are correct. there are infinite solutions.

one is simple one, realizing there is no problem.

another is simple, listening and dancing to yes music, or maybe alanis music, or some such derivitive.

or in my case, watch the serenity movie, and the firefly tv dvd series over and over, with and without commentaries, until you really see the gorram, ruttin‘ ching sao tsai da. and then for variety watching the sci-fi channel's dune and children of dune over and over. until you really see the fulcrum. and of course, doing shadowwork with and without trained and training facillitators.

and infinite Love.

you are 100% connected to God, Infinity.  whether you know it or not.

Re: Christian friends and Yes music

“becoming One also means embracing the Pain of those who suffer. but you already know that. : )”  I'd say that i TRY and know that kind of compassion, but too many times it's in the head. So it's a learning process for me.

Yes, to me Wholeness, Oneness, is such an attractive CONCEPT (it is so very logical AND so very loving) that it allows the FEELING of fear (“scary”) to rise within ourselves. It's like “Oh shit, now look what I've done!” :)

“we are not fearful that we are powerless, we are fearful that we are powerful beyond our wildest dreams.” I think I may have heard this as well. I wouldn't doubt it having been a Course student for many years.

To me, this quote is at the core of the difference between Yes music and Christianity.  Yes music is truly democratic and seeks to empower all people.

Because Christianity sees human beings as separate from God and God is the only being that contains power, to me it is spiritual DEpowerment by taking away an individual's own natural spirituality. It is actually the opposite of true democracy, even though they ironically think that they are voting for THE TRUE democracy.

I see that this frame of mind can view empowerment as “selfish” and “blasphemous.”

I just saw this again of Zaadz's Home page:
“Amazing how much potential is in a tiny seed, eh? We think so, too. That power reminds us of the amazing potential within each of us. We thought the idea of creating a company that inspires and empowers you to bring your “seed” to actualization would be pretty powerful.”

My point here is NOT, that where we are at (Zaadz), is it! Nope, not going to fall for that one again! The point is - the idea, the feeling of “potential,” “empowerment.” The idea, not the people.

It seems to me that Yes music is certain that our spirituality is innate, is natural, is a birthright, is a divine heritage. Because Yes music makes the simple choice to express empowerment, their music proudly sounds like self-empowerment, and radiantly sound like spiritual empowerment.

Re: Christian friends and Yes music

It seems to me that Yes music is certain that our spirituality is innate, is natural, is a birthright, is a divine heritage. Because Yes music makes the simple choice to express empowerment, their music proudly sounds like self-empowerment, and radiantly sound like spiritual empowerment.

i interpret yes music very similarly, tho i have to say that many a yes fan doesn't seem to get it, imo.  and just like what you said about zaadz, it is imperative to me to do the same with yes. 

and conversely, with 'christianity', i don't assume that so many are clueless to using god for personal empowerment of an inclusive love. 

like osteen's lakewood church, i've heard him say that even tho his belief is that jesus is the only way for him, that he can't say that anybody that is developing love is or isn't in god's will.

rick wakeman posted on his website that same sentiment.  (if i understood it correctly)

Re: Christian friends and Yes music

Thanks.
I see why you'ld think that I would assume that “so many are clueless to using god for personal empowerment.” My assumsion actually comes from going to church and witnessing the behavior and beliefs of people that gives weight to a “cluelessness' (or confusion) as to a brainwashing that any power from the congregant is “wrong, sinful, selfish, evil, and blasphemous,” and “all power rightfully (and only) belongs to God.” And thus conversly causes me to feel that “Yes music is certain that our spirituality is innate…”

Thank you Jack for sharing with me these important ideas. I appreciate your point of view! Simply, it helps me clarify my thoughts.

“even tho his belief is that jesus is the only way for him, that he can't say that anybody that is developing love is or isn't in god's will.”  Hmmm. My intentions are loving (as are yours, I can tell - and Yes's), but it's been told to me many times that “The road to hell is paved with good intentions.”

Allow me to say that, if the rigidity of “only Jesus” and the flexability of loving intentions can co-exist (in their mind), then (in my mind) so can “only the power of God” and the natural empowerment of All.

Re: Christian friends and Yes music

it's a wonderful feeling to be able to discuss these issues, from a point of contentious love. at a previous yes forum, i had a tendency to challenge what i saw as a limited understanding of love. i call it la-la-la-love. i was told that i wasn't welcome to speak about challenging things, because it wasn't community oriented.

so my experience with a yes community was similar to yours with those churches. i was told i was wrong, sinful, selfish and a yes music blasphemer. : ) and instead of debating from a space of equal validity, about ideas, i feel their responses turned into assaults on my character.

so even tho i agree with you (knowing our agreement doesn't make it true) about the member's of yes' intentions, and the musical intention that is at the core.  still, i have found a large contingent of the yes church to be just as self-righteous and judgmental as the christian church.

in shadowwork, i'd be challenged to see that i am just a self-righteous as the people i'm pointing at as self-righteous. if i can overcome my abhorrence of that thought, then there is a LOT of very interesting wisdom. yes, i am self-righteous and elist and that's just the way i am, i have to deal with it.  so in time, i integrate the shadow, and consciousness grows.

the road to my hell IS paved with good intentions. : ) there is truth to that, and simultaneously, there is truth to the exact opposite of that.

and next time a christian lays that line on me, i'll say, i see that is true in your case. lol  j/k

i don't expect you to go lock-step with me, and i'm thankful you don't.

but the core of what i'm saying is i try to feel namaste with even the most hypocritical people i meet.  i am that, too.  so the core of what i'm saying is to be One with the universe, even the part that says we aren't One.  so the core of what i'm saying is, jack, shut the fuck up!  lol

Re: Christian friends and Yes music

Dear “Yes Blasphemer”

I completely understand what you are saying and how you feel!

Somehow it's interesting that Jon himself is a Christian, and we have attracted both Christians and Yes in our lives. There is a luminosity in both. There is something there that is truly wonderful and nurturing to the soul. But, in this world, two huge “houses” (Christianity & Yesianity) haven't mixed, do not mix (And some would vehemently say should not mix!.) It's sad, but what else is new.

You are correct Jack, Yes music is like a church. And as within Christianity there exists many different denominations…many different rooms within that house. And in both cases it makes sense that a child (for ex.) would steam off to his room in anger, slam his bedroom door, because  his behaviour was not in alignment with the family. (Or in your case perhaps sorrowfully shut the door to your room because your words were not what that family wants or thinks it needs. :(

I'd say that because Yes has instilled in me a very strong “faith,” I have found myself wanting to allow at least some of the ingrediants of these two camps to mingle and understand each other. (Call me naive. Don't hit me :)

What can I say I see beauty in both, therefore it's natural for anybody to want to get the others to see and understand. But I'm having to learn the common lesson that…you can't change others. My focus ends up being too much on others. You've helped me see that - it can be kind of ministering-like. God knows we don't need more pushy people in this world! But thankfully, similar to Shadowwork, I believe that “there are no failings that are not instintaneously forgiven.”

(More here)

Re: Christian friends and Yes music

i don't feel that in your case that any forgiveness was appropriate.  you never sinned by jesus or yes or yourself.  you were listening to your heart and acting.  just because others didn't grow as much as you'd hoped is not a your sin.  and it's not their sin, either.

it is the slow but sure turning of the spheres.  and the small changes that never stop.  as we catch the synchronicities of how playfully peace is coming to earth.

Re: Christian friends and Yes music

Re: Christian friends and Yes music

i borrowed that from a friend.  it is part of my scrolling marquee screensaver.