Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Oh, OK, if you guys are vamping, I will go ahead.

This is the continuation of a fantastic conversation with Sandra Jensen. If you are just discovering this thread, you will want to go back and catch up. The first thread got to the point of being too slow-loading for some of our Gaia members.

BTW I want to add my two cents about writer shyness and blocks: In this day and age of so many different kinds of voice-recording devices, it seems to me if you can talk, you can write. Sometimes when I am not yet ready to write, when I don't want to sit down and write without SOME kind of flow going, I grab a recorder, and perhaps I grab a friend I can “blurt” to, and I start talking. Then all I have to do is transcribe my voice, and in that process I inevitably start editing, and the flow is flowing. (I always say I am not a very good writer, but I am a damned fine editor, hahahaha.)

Love, OM

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Terrill asked on the other thread:

I wonder if you have insights that would be helpful for those of us who dance away from our writing as if we had no ability to communicate by the written word?

sigh. Sometimes I wish I had the secret. The thing that works all the time, every time. I don't. All I can say is the muse comes and she goes, and there's not much one can do about it. The main thing I have to remind myself - and I thank you for asking the question because I'm having one of 'those' days and need reminding - is that how one is feeling about one's writing, about anything actually, has little relevance to the quality of the work.

And, of course, this doesn't solve the problem of putting bottom to seat and fingers to keyboard (or pen) to get that work done. Sometimes I console or inspire myself by reading what other writers have to say about the problem…:

A writer is somebody for whom writing is more difficult than it is for other people.
Thomas Mann, Essays of Three Decades, 1947

You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club.
Jack London

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Thanks for all of the golden threads of wonder & enlightenment.

You hear the term renaissance bandied about every now & then, & lately I've been wondering about it. I view this feature with Sandra as a renaissance woman for all scribes & those just getting the hang of writing.

But the more I read this & page 1, the more I realize that probably more people than one would suspect have earned the title of renaissance in the modern age.
The word “renaissance” of course comes from the French for “rebirth”, & has come to mean a very high level of artistic creation after a fallow or oppressive period. To me, the word basically describes a very high-spirited activity of injecting life into the everyday, boring environment, such as through the arts or other channel. This seems to me to be the big secret: that this is what human beings do all the time, especially when they are being themselves.

Anybody working to create a business or any aspect of their job is an artist, to some degree, even if they are just working & starting out with a desire. A mother is an artist, bringing life to a family by raising the children & making a safe world for them to live in. You, right now are perhaps hoping that I did my job well & are providing you with a moment's respite from a tedious day, a day in which you are engaged in bringing order to the chaos of your existence. Even if that just means you are filing a mountain of papers. You still are creating order, & that is what artists have done since the beginning of time.

Human beings aren't objects, after all. If we all didn't create space & energy in this world, it would come to a big, grinding halt. We are every one of us renaissance folks, engaged in the daily activity of “rebirthing”, if you will, the still & impassive world around us, so that we can have some fun & games.

Maybe you & I do have more in common than one would immediately suppose. I'll tell you one thing, Sandra  would definitely be my leader to better more effective writing skills.  Thank you from the bottom of my heart for the help you have giving on Dreams of Artists. The time spent reading is of such a quality;  It has been an honor to know you & now to get to know you on a deeper level.  I have been enjoying all of the links to many new writings around Gaia linking our many talents. Among our renaissance woman writers on Gaia, &  I have also adored reading is Leigh-Anne quietlaughter, who Sandra spoke of on page 1:  ”Does everyone here know that Leigh-Anne wrote 50,000 words in TEN days, thus completing the National Novel Writing Month goal with 31 days to spare ??? (and yes, she went on to write, what? 80,000 ? Lots anyway.) She's the most focused writer I know, that plus such talent, I'm floored on a daily basis (here is just one of so many wonderful pieces …).” for new writers to follow & be inspired by along with Sandra's amazing group.

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

~Kes… I loved reading you this morning (hmm, afternoon here already). I resonated with : The word “renaissance” of course comes from the French for “rebirth”has come to mean a very high level of artistic creation after a fallow or oppressive period

Although I've been writing on and off for years, I only truly dived in a couple of years ago - I could not have called myself a 'writer' before that. I'm 47. I take heart that there are other writers/artists who are late starters (the extraordinary Annie Proulx, who wrote Brokeback Mountain etc, published her first collection at age 53). I can't say my life has been fallow, particularly - oppressive times, certainly – but in a creative sense I would say I refused the calling until very recently. I dabbled with 'her' (the muse) in all kinds of ways, from acting to mime to photography, but it has taken me this long to settle fully into being a writer.

You still are creating order, & that is what artists have done since the beginning of time.

this made me giggle… chaos seems to be the ruling factor in my life! And perhaps, what fuels my work. I'm not sure I'd use the word order. Perhaps creating meaning, but order? I'm not sure. I'm curious what other artists think about this. I suppose it depends on how 'order' is defined.

hugs to you dear one.

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Thanks for your response Sandra.  It would be an exciting exercise for artists to talk about order.  

I view it like throwing some confetti in the air and watching the confusion falling all around. Eventually we would have a piece of work the eye of the beholder could talk about & purchase for our very own from the artists/writers, etc. To put order into it I would pick one piece and make a decision the world revolves around that.  I could come up with better examples but that was the picture I got first.

In art of any sort, pick one piece and allow things to align around it to help get that particular project done and ready for an audience.  When I put order in confusion and chaos are always there to take me into another area off of what I wanted to do… but if I keep putting order in I have noticed the confusion goes away.  For me in handling problems that arise at work, continuing to bring order helps me to get more things done.  I am open for more thoughts…Editing is like putting order in…sometimes its like watching grass grow so I can imagine with a story that order going into a page can be a toughie when it's your baby - heart & soul.
img.source

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

YIKES, I just realized the implications of my schedule tomorrow Wednesday: I will be offline from 9am to 11pm my time. And I will also be offline on Thursday from 9am till about 7pm!

At least one other mod will be reading and participating during that time. I look forward to reading what awaits me when I get home tomorrow night!

Love, OM

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Hi Sandra,

I haven't met you online before today, apart from seeing some of your photos posted, I remember a kitten reading a book…I love writing poetry, and came upon haiku when I joined Gaia and love writing in this style..

It has been mentioned several times by friends and strangers that it would be good for me to write a book - I wrote the first page last year!  Have you any advice for me starting off on this journey into words…

blessings to you
Tai

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Hi Sandra, It was a delight to read all of page 1 in my e-mail notifications and follow the many links to the wonderful world of writing.  Thank you for bringing the richness of the joys of writing to light.  You have completely lifted the bar due to the fact that we are all writing each other on the web as our visual medium which forces our intellect to come to play and using the on-line search tools & dictionaries to gain knowledge. 

I too am interested in what Tai talks about, Have you any advice for me starting off on this journey into words… as I read all of her poems & feel we also have another writer/artist on a journey on Gaia.  My question, is it difficult to get news articles after you have written & do you recommend places to have news of your work? Do you offer book tours or a schedule of retreats of your works

Quote about Sandra: ”writing is not about being published but rather is a healing process of shared inner dialogue…”  “Diving Deeper workshops, or retreats, as she prefers to call them. Participants are supported to by-pass their critical mind, to access their experiences and imagination in a way that is completely present and flowing.” WOW!!! You make the process such an expansion of everyone.  I enjoyed reading this article.

We can rest assured you have something cooking as the world is your stage venturing into imagination & beyond.  Thanks for writing!  Lee

image source

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Hi Lee! Thanks for posting those links and for your lovely words.

News articles - you mean publicity for my work?

Well, I'm a fledgling writer, what they call an 'emerging' writer in this business. I don't seek publicity, I do seek getting published in reasonably ok or prestigious Literary magazines. I enter competitions. I do all these things with the main purpose of having a respectable CV to offer a literary agent.

Only being published in literary magazines does not make me particularly newsworthy or interesting – thousands of writers, many much much better than I am, are in the same situation. Have we ever heard of them? No. Only with a book publication some publicity might occur.

I did give a reading of La Llorona at the launch of Versal 6 in Amsterdam. I loved it. I am a performer, I used to be in theatre, and I'd love to give more readings. I recently attended the West Cork Literary festival here in Ireland - my first. I now see that these things are worth going to - mostly to meet people and make contacts. They have 'open mike' nights - starting at 11:45 pm….ak.. way after my bed time…that I did not attend, but next year I might. I've also spoken to the festival organisers to see if I might do a 'publicised' reading of my work. It's possible, but unlikely, as they usually only have readings by published - book published - authors.

I'm looking at setting up a reading here at a bookstore, to coincide with the publication of a story of mine in AGNI this fall.

As for news articles - the only news article ever done on me was for Diving Deeper - one in an Irish newspaper you linked to, & the other for NaNoWrMo. I haven't pursued any publicity as a writer- I'm not ready for this yet, in terms of where I am on the writer career path. A major competition win, yes, a book publication, yes…

so, cross thumbs (paws?) will ya?

hugs
S.

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Thanks so much for sharing.  Emerson's “Hitch your wagon to a star” …to get to the tree tops & the links show it is happening & continuing which is my wish for you. Coming from theatre is a beautiful foundation for writing and developing characters.

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Lee. My experience in theatre was quite limited – I'd love to have done more, maybe another life.

In terms of writing - I can see connections in particular to improvisation, which I loved. (I studied - briefly - the Meisner technique) A few actor members of DD have pointed out how close the Freefall method is to improvisation.

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It's so important to learn in a supportive environment.  Meisner's tech is a much faster technique than Stanislavski's The Method where the exercises didn't have a sense of urgency.  It truly make sense to me to use some form of improvisational technique in writing. Thanks so much for sharing.  The beauty in your pictures & writing shine.

“All the world's a stage
and all the men and women merely players
they have their exits and their entrances
and one man in his time plays many parts
his acts being seven ages”.
William Shakespeare's play, 'As You Like It'

enjoy!

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Loved the Pacino tip, Lee! very funny.

I have a piece on “The uncertainty Factor” in Diving Deeper which touches on many similar aspects to improv - for me Freefall is absolutely about being present to what's happening, saying “yes” to that, not holding a fixed idea about outcome : ”If you focus on what your writing is going to be 'about', how it's going to 'end', what it's going to 'tell the reader', you will stymie the creative process right off the bat. You are doing what I call 'directing traffic', and by doing so you will most likely end up in a traffic jam….”

And a quote I like:

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Nice to meet you Tai.. although in this amazing world here, I feel we have already brushed shoulders, smiled at each other along the way… I love your haiku – the latest one is very lovely ”Heart and Soul”.

What kind of book are you talking about? A book of haiku?

I don't know if I have any advice for anyone really. I can only say how the journey developed for me - and we are all different.

For me, to go from writing here and there to writing 'a book' would be an impossible task. I think the very idea of it would stop me writing anything at all.

I discovered Freefall, taught by Barbara Turner, about 12 years ago. This process, which is largely the process I share on DD, was what made me realise it's about writing. The act of writing. What happens then. It is a practice - like a meditation. Is there an outcome with meditation? Well, I suppose there is in a way - clearer mind, better health, awakening even. But one doesn't 'do' meditation for an outcome – the moment that happens, there is no meditation. It is not dissimilar with creative writing (I suspect there is a difference to this and, say, writing a manual on how to operate a floor sander). The actual, in the moment experience of writing in the freefall way - can bring one into a deep state of awareness, a place where nothing else matters but 'this'. It's not a unique way, most creative writers discover this 'zone' one way or the other - and seek it. It's not a permanent state, same with those deep states of meditation, they come and go, and we can only try to gently encourage the state. Do we give up if we do not achieve that state all the time, every time, in meditation? No, we sit, again. And again.

It is the same with writing. And having experienced that particular state - where the writing is happening all by itself, where the writer is not directing traffic, where one is, almost, just the 'typist', this experience stays in the cells, as a reminder of why write.

So. This is what happened for me. I wrote to write. Not to write a book. Or a short story. Or anything. Yes, stories came out, but I was simply seeking to go deeper with the work, with the practise. Years of this. Years.

And then, something happened. I described in the previous thread a bit about my first 'real' short story, La Llorona - this happened two years ago. After years of writing, not every day, not at all, in fact I had a four year totally dry period (other than blogs/emails etc). But I would say this story could not have happened if I had not applied myself to the 'isness' of writing, if I had not written reams and reams of 'stuff' - in the freefall way, if I didn't write for the simple experience of writing rather than for the outcome.

And, oh yes, so important… reading. I read endlessly. It's one of the best ways to learn how to write, imo.

Two years ago I had no plans about writing a book. I wrote one story, one story that I felt was actually a true short story, and then another. And another. And another. Until early last year it became clear that I had enough for a collection, and that is want I wanted to do with the work. Several of my stories had been published (some written before that 'true' short story), so I knew that I wasn't pissing in the wind, so to speak.

I don't know what stage you are at in your writing, Tai, –but I would say the book will arise, when it's ready to. The main thing, is to keep writing… and to keep writing. And listening. Listen to yourself, to the muse, to the call within you… and listen to others who you trust. It sounds like you have supportive people around you regarding your writing, this is so important!

Love,
Sandra

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Thank you Sandra for responding so well - I will follow your links, I do love reading all sorts of books and at present  have a fascination for poetry books …..  I like photography too, so maybe it would be good to concentrate on this flow for the time being and let anything else happen along the way..
Love Tai

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Hello Sandra,

Tai and me always seem to come in two :-)

I've read this thread, and found myself resonating big time with you explaining the process behind your own writing, the mitivations to reach a certain group of people, but not being aware of it. Just let the ideas come and start writing.

I sense that very strongly with me. No plotlines, no big picture storyline to begin and work towards a predefined message or moral thought. I just start and see were it takes me. It's like a journey inward.

I wonder though why I didn't join de DD group yet. I know it's there since I've joined Gaia. I have doubts about my writing ability, but not on the level of skill. It's something else. Allthough writing in my native dutch language is less challenging, I've joined a writers workshop for some time. It didn't seeem to fit, propably because of laking the understanding on a deeper level. It was just about writing, about techniques, grammatics etc.

I love the DD concept, because it's about writing but most of all about the human condition, understanding it and having dialogue about that rather than about just sentences on paper.

In short, I am intrigued by the concept and thinking about joining. I am now in the middle of writing a story. At the top of this second thread the quote of O'Rourke gave me a cosmic laugh. So farmiliar this kind of behaviour is. Looking for excuses to delay beginning the struggle on the white paper.

Is DD in a sense a way of communicating on the level of metaphores. Metaphores are part of the fabric of the mind. It becomes a language by itself. DD translates the content to a form we can all interact with one another. How is your view on that?

Sparks,
Nino.

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Nino .. sweet to read you, and your beautiful writing in your blogs. I loved Light(())Eclipse, may I quote?

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Everyone - What a delight to catch up on both Part One and Two of this fantastic feature about Sandra Jensen.  I am grateful for all of the links that you have provided, and am following those delicious breadcrumbs!

Sandra - it terms of the actual mechanics of writing … do you use pen/paper; a laptop/computer; or a combination thereof?  What modality are you drawn to and why? 

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Laurie - it terms of the actual mechanics of writing … do you use pen/paper; a laptop/computer; or a combination thereof?  What modality are you drawn to and why?

I have appalling handwriting. I can't read it myself. I taught myself to type when I was 12 and haven't looked back.. I type faster than I can think. This is quite useful sometimes, and a drawback other times. I do write notes/journals with a pen, and one of my recent pieces, which I feel most strongly about, was first written in pen, but then 'opened out' in type. I find it frustrating using a pen, because it's so slow for me and gets messier and messier. But, quite possibly, it's a method I should explore….

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Sandra: I do write notes/journals with a pen, and one of my recent pieces, which I feel most strongly about, was first written in pen, but then 'opened out' in type.

So are we going to be able to say one day [soon]–Hey, I know Sandra–you know the lady who wrote her wildly successful book all over packing boxes?

[to the tune of..youknowwho who wrote on napkins about that famous boy wizard!!!]

OOps! Looking for a link to place here, this is what I found:

Do you still have the napkins that you wrote the first book on? I'm giggling…where did you read that? I didn't write on napkins; I wrote in notepads. We really need to squash this myth before people ask to see the used tea bags on which I drafted the first book!

–

Another one urban legend bites the dust!
On another note, I was coming here to bring out the wonderful organizer that you are, when I read this on one of your posts in this thread
“chaos seems to be the ruling factor in my life! And perhaps, what fuels my work. I'm not sure I'd use the word order”

I've seen your ordering capablities - the way you've organized DD and also how you had given so many inputs about the user interface for the latest redesign of Gaia Groups. ..

Perhaps when you can bring order to the world outside, your inner life is free to roam at will!

Since a newcomer to Gaia has recently joined this  group  I'd love to take this opportunity to ask you:

What would you advise someone who is joining Gaia today? 

You could post here, or in Advice from Featured Members- whatever you prefer; if you feel like tackling this now!
 

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Meenakshi.. wildly successful <grin>. I think wildly successful and short story collection is a non sequitur!

As for order to the world outside. You should see my room.. chaos generally reigns. My sense of what I 'do' is more along the lines of trying to bring out what I deem is important. Once upon a time I had a 'normal' job for a while, and I'd often find myself in meetings which went on and on and on about this and that and I'd be the one to stick an oar in, suggesting that perhaps we might actually do what is necessary regarding whatever was being discussed. I suppose it's a kind of 'order'. Maybe I just like to order people about!

What would you advise someone who is joining Gaia today? 
I think I'll answer this here, I already have so many Gaia tabs open…

I think the first step is to spend time over your profile. It can always be changed, but an empty profile isn't very inviting. I sometimes get requests from members to join DD, and they haven't filled in any of the fields in their profile. It makes it hard for me to connect, to get a sense of the person, to feel 'with' them. Adding a few pictures, images, and a blog or two, even if they are very short, also helps a lot.

I'd also suggest starting slow – not trying to go everywhere, discover everything. Find a few people you feel connected to, read their blogs, comment. Return when there is a new blog. Maybe join a group, but not 10 groups all at once. My sense is the more scattered you begin, the more scattered you will stay – go for depth first, building width as you go along… most of my closest friends here are from my early days, when Gaia was Zaadz. The place was much much smaller, I didn't dart about that much, I got into some long conversations which built friendships (and showed me who I actually *wanted* to be friends with and who not!).

And, like anywhere, how much you get out of a community depends upon how much you put into it. Whenever I'm feeling Gaia or Diving Deeper is not 'feeding me', it's always at times I've been absent and not sharing or giving much. The more I share and listen, the more 'fed' I feel.

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Terrill - I wanted to ask you something, or rather share  - - I read your lovely blog
”Rediscovered Love Poem” where, after the poem you write - I'm quoting freely here, I hope that is ok - if not we can remove the quote - :

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Wow, I'm glad I couldn't sleep and got here early, so I could read all this before going off to my seminar and then meeting today. What a treat!!!!!! One of the best conversations I've heard in ages!!!!!

Sandra, you said:
I think I know of one, maybe two writers for whom it's not true. [that they struggle to write and avoid the process.]


I suspect I am one of those. I write because I have something I strongly and urgently want to say, and usually I have a LOT to say, and if I don't write I experience pain. Like not cooperating with a birth already underway in one's body, haha. And I generally have several dozen half-completed articles, that generally lack only time to get back to.


But also, to be honest, sometimes I am stuck at how to express what I want to say, in the “right” words, because I am a perfectionist, and I procrastinate the next step in that particular writing project. The way out of that for me is to “force” myself to write something, and then my inner editor takes over, and we are off and running again. I have learned that even getting the most horribly inadequate version of what I want to say, out, is the best way to proceed.


I suspect much of my writing is not from as deep a “self” or psychological place as most of you folks; I'm often the one writing the aforementioned manual on how to operate a tractor, as it were, and I adore doing that. OTOH I write a lot about my inner spiritual journey and experiences, so that's pretty deep, and essentially nonverbal to begin with. Still, I sense some kind of difference with much of the kind of writing folks are describing here. Either that kind isn't “my thing” or I don't feel capable of that kind. If the latter, then I would surely benefit from all the wisdom and inspiration being shared here. It's totally awesome and delicious!!!!!


BTW I adore the process of editing. I experience it EXACTLY like sculpting. It is very kinesthetic and aesthetic for me. Shaping the words to reveal the thoughts, the awarenesses, the connections, the patterns, the nuances. A little scrape here, a little rounding over there, a sweep between these two spots…. My body participates exactly as if I were sculpting. And THAT is so sensuously enjoyable, even so ecstatic, that I seek doing it. So that motivates me to persist when I feel like procrastinating. Even while I am agonizing over “it's not right yet” I am enjoying the whole process.


Does anyone else have that kind of experience?


I'm aware I'm talking a lot about myself in the last few posts here, and not much interacting, but since I'm talking out loud in a group, I am really looking for comments, feedback, and for whatever beneficial effects any of you might get, especially perhaps from contrast, from someone a bit differen, yet very similar!


Have a great day everyone! I'm off to study the “16 Ways” developed by www.dylannewcomb.com, in case anyone is curious.


Love, OM

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

OM… amazing what you manage to do in a day!

I write because I have something I strongly and urgently want to say, and usually I have a LOT to say,

Well as you can see from these threads I also have a lot to say. And, yes this, to me, is different from the kind of writing I'm talking about on Diving Deeper. Although Freefall can be applied to all kinds of writing, as I've already said, including manuals on tractors… essentially I'm talking about stories.

About stories…

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

oops typo, but I like it.. “you care probably one of the most passionate people on Gaia!”
should be “you are probably one of the most passionate people on Gaia!”

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Sandra, thank you for your generous link…..I love ALL the kittens and cats that have appeared on this storybook thread ! After reading this thread again I feel the excitement of finding the words to express the feelings pulsing through the heart. Then suddenly finding my inner critic..then the blank page…now what ? The free-fall into saying that no inner critic can deny what already exists on this thread and how satisfying it was to injest it into an open mind,unedited without judgement..and that meeting S…sandra
                                         Q…quietly
                                         U…understanding
                                         A…awareness
                                         N…noting
                                         K…kindness
                                              has left me elightened to DD in the Gaia pool of life……….

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Hey, waterheart – sweet! I always wondered what that meant. You got Sandra to a T.

Love & peace & squank!

Tom

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Ralph - I love what you did with QUANK - it fits Sandra to a 'T!'

Sandra - I like your description, “I do write notes/journals with a pen, and one of my recent pieces, which I feel most strongly about, was first written in pen, but then 'opened out' in type.”  I imagine the 'opened out' part is somewhat like putting flesh on the bones.  Thank you for your lovely response.

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

…Laurie, I like this, yes it is like putting flesh on bones.

…Ralph, so sweet to read you. I'm sure Tom would have something to say about his Hai being used like that!! Luckily, my Hai just makes everything easy for me. “Yes”
hugs.
I think I'm going to have an early night tonight. Maybe there's nothing more to talk about?

Maybe it's time for a little light relief??

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

[Sandra, I hope you're on 'newest first, as one of my posts today is buried in Reply to Post-land!]

As I came across a Gaia birthday today, it occurred to me that this is your birthday month.

Could you please fill in  How I Like To Celebrate My Birthday On & Off Line?

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

done!

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Sandra - Happy birthday month!  As a Virgo your:

Ruling Planet – Mercury
Element – Earth
Traits – Common Sense
You were born during The Moon of Harvesting
Keywords – I Analyze
Key Notes – Efficiency & Precision

How does being a Virgo affect your writing style, habits, etc (if at all)?

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Laurie… I'm also a virgo with a sun-pluto conjunction in the 8th house (or 9th, depending on what house system)… which sort of makes me an honorary scorpio. But then, I have Saturn in capricorn the 1st house, making me quite capricornian… but then Jupiter is conjunct Saturn, which means I've got an 'out there' sagittarian pull on that stubborn, serious Saturn.

I think I 'see' more of the capricorn effect – they typically come into their 'own' late in life, are determined, hard working and very ambitious. The virgo in me makes me a perfectionist, which is useful and also a pain in the neck sometimes.  I'm rarely satisfied with my work. I'm chaotically efficient, I suppose! and I'd say the virgo keeps my ego in check, as does pluto, demanding that I dive into the depths again, and again, and again. The moment I think 'I've got it' - I've achieved the great It, pluto shoves me back into the fire and I have to start all over again…. sigh.

and like you, I have a good dose of Libra – on my 10th house, house of career. creativity..all things beautiful… and diplomacy…

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Sandra -  You said, “I'm chaotically efficient”  – I love it!  Then I can feel free to share that I'm anal retentive.  My muse is tidiness and order.  When everything is clean and in its place, I can write until the cows come home!  But, if things are off kilter, the blooms on my creative blossom curl in, shrivel up and refuse to flow.

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I enjoyed Tom Waits - clever while we were waiting for the next step on our journey.  I stumbled upon the list of Virgo Celebrity birthdays.  There sure are a lot of famous writers.  The signs are fun! Sandra, If someone wants to order a t-shirt or mug is it best to e-mail you?

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~Kes – that was fun! Stephen King. I had no idea I shared virgo-ness with him, not to mention, ahem, Queen Elizabeth I…

Leigh-Anne set the Diving Deeper 'swag' up at Zazzle. I've still got to get round to getting some for myself!  The logo was designed by a dear friend and painter - Rosemary Taylor.

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Laurie, like many messy people, the truth is I FAR prefer things to be neat! There are just so many other things that seem more important to do….My hubby is the neat virgo of the two of us, I'm the nutritionist ;-)

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Sandra - I just read your response to the question, “What would you advise someone who is joining Gaia today?”  The two things that really jumped off the page are:

” … go for depth first, building width as you go along…”

” … how much you get out of a community depends upon how much you put into it.”
 
Spot-on!

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Thank you so much Sandra for your thoughtful answer about the writing process… I have been known to de-clutter my desk surface, shelve my stacks of books and clean out the fridge while in the process of completing a writing assignment. Yet at other times I cannot get to the computer fast enough and the keys seem to type themselves. Your response reminded me that there is no perfect ways… more like a list of friends that you can call on when needed and you can only decide which one to call at the very moment that you need them.

I am thrilled that you found my post about a rediscovered love poem and the follow-up questions useful. Your comments about nurturing our personal leadership and finding our authentic voice resonates with my international work with World Leadership Day and research about the strength of authentic leadership for women leaders.  

I’m so appreciating all the contributions everyone has made to this conversation. Sorry it has taken me a couple of days to dip back in. My grandson (he is seven) is visiting for the week and we have been off hiking, picking blackberries, sleeping in tents and reading brother Grimms’ and Tintin stories. I’m having so much fun but it leaves little time for being on-line except late at night when I am too tired to think much.   I’m looking forward to leisurely re-reading these posts next week with a pot of tea to keep me company as I sink deeply into each contribution.    

Sandra I appreciate what you said about being in community while working alone on your writing. I know that a long time ago on Zaadz writers used to regularly comment on my writing and I think many of them were part of your writing group and offered awesome well thought out feedback and encouragement. This kind of free floating feedback on blog posts seems to be less common these days.

Sandra you may have answered this already but are still welcoming new writers to your Diving Deeper group here on Gaia? If the answer is “yes” what is the process to join and what is it you seek in member participation?

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Terrill..off hiking, picking blackberries, sleeping in tents and reading brother Grimms’ and Tintin stories.

Oh! sounds like heaven to me! And, I'm very inspired by the work you do.

still welcoming new writers to your Diving Deeper group here on Gaia? If the answer is “yes” what is the process to join and what is it you seek in member participation?

Yes absolutely. The group is 'request-in' which means that a potential member has to email one of the moderators ( Leigh-Anne, Ayla, Rudyan, Andrea, and ClevelandX) or myself first. We try to make sure the group is 'for' whoever wants to join. I ask that one or two introductory pieces about the process are read (What is Diving Deeper &  Diving Deeper in a Nutshell) and, more importantly I ask for a basic agreement to the On Commenting guidelines. This particular thread is long - and the guidelines are an ongoing endeavour, but they are key to how the group 'works'.

If there is anything that we seek in terms of participation, it is at least a willingness to learning how to 'comment'… it's something I find very difficult and am always learning about myself.

I suspect some people are a bit intimidated by the request-in process, and I'm sorry about this. We do try to make the process as inviting as possible. However, being 'request-in' has helped maintain a 'sacred space' for the members. Often very personal and deep pieces are shared, so it's important that everyone knows how best to give feedback on such work.

People who join absolutely do not need to be 'experienced writers' or to participate actively - however, because it is a 'workshop' environment and a real community, the more you write and post and comment, the more you will get out of it.

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I'm tucking in for the night…  I'll leave you all with one of my favourite dances, choreographed by Pina Bausch, who died 30 June this year.

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Sandra, thank you from all of us for your precious embrace and your beautific soul.
  
…and wishing you the oasis of restful dreamscapes. 

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Sandra, I think that the On Commenting guideline are a classic not only for commenting on DD, but also a guideline for commenting on any writing in a mutually beneficial way.

And oh yes- good morning! [I'll probably be asleep when you're back here]
Ready for tea with kitten?

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Terrill - thank you for asking the question, “Are you still welcoming new writers to your Diving Deeper group here on Gaia? If the answer is “yes” what is the process to join and what is it you seek in member participation?”

Sandra - thank you for your response, “We do try to make the process as inviting as possible. However, being 'request-in' has helped maintain a 'sacred space' for the members. Often very personal and deep pieces are shared, so it's important that everyone knows how best to give feedback on such work.” 

Thank you for the links that you provided as well.  

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Good morning, Sandra!! I'm back from getting improved, at a two-day workshop from Dylan Newcomb (www.dylannewcomb.com) in his The 16 Ways, an awesome combination of breath, movement, I Ching, Spiral Dynamics levels, and a bunch of other threads woven in, that has deep psychological/body-energy effects.

I've been wanting to share with the folks here more of the awesome pictures of you taken by Rowdy Yeats, whom you described this way:

Taken  by Michael Thorsnes who I met recently at the West Cork Literary Festival. He calls himself Rowdy O'Yeats and is, these days, a 'cowboy poet' and photographer.  However, he had a very high profile career as a lawyer and active in the Democrat party (see this ) and is, Poet Laureate for the Presidential Campaign of John Kerry etc, and twice a member of the United States Cutting Horse Team!

Quite the resume for a photographer!!!  I'd like to encourage people to click on the photos in your gallery, as there is a lot more to see in the larger versions of the pictures. IMO these portraits of you show aspects that are not in your icon: your strength and elegance, whereas your icon is beautiful and sweet and ?pixie-ish but not as profound a self.

And I'm still working my way through 269 photos, enjoying them all!!! It's a delightful trip!

And I couldn't let this conversation close without sharing my profound gratitude to you for expressing what so many of us feel but couldn't articulate so powerfully, in your Paean to Zaadz, your “ode of joy and thanks” to this website, this community, and the Team who support us here. (Not to mention, more of your marvelous cat photo collection.)  And the followup blog entry, Taking the Leap into Gaia.

And then as people read those, they'll discover another one they'd like to read, and then just one more that looks fascinating, and two days later they will emerge from your blog hungry as heck and blaming me for their missing work for two days, and I warn you all right now that I disclaim any liability for any results from visiting Sandra's blog !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [And of course, I won't refer again to all your writings available outside the community, too.Shhhh……]

Love, OM

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OM, I don't think it's possible for you to be improved!! And, I'm glad you had what sounds like a fabulous time.

Thanks for mentioning the photographs Rowdy took (all those of me on this page he did). It was quite an experience – I spotted this curious looking man with an enormous and I mean enormous camera lens taking photos of people at the festival. I peered over his shoulder as he scanned through his MacBook looking at what he took and I went 'Wow'. I asked if he might take a photograph of David, my partner.. and that ended up in a full photoshoot up in one of the rooms of the hotel the Festival was held in! You can see the results of those here..”David in Ireland”.

We invited Rowdy and his lovely partner, Corine to come and have a meal and stay the night at our house… which is when he did my shoot. This was inbetween him reciting his poetry any given moment, Luckily his poetry rather good, and his photos are stunning, I think. He's able to 'show' a deeper side to people. These days Rowdy is travelling the world taking portrait photographs of people from all walks of life because, as he put it 'if I don't, no one will' - he doesn't charge anyone. He's got fairly advanced Parkinsons and seems to have decided to live his live exactly as he really wants to.

And thanks for your kind words about my blog - I feel a bit badly about it, it's sort of fizzled out a bit over the past year to a 'once a month' snippet. I think my 'deeper' writings are, perhaps, saved for my work –  I do have a very very funny video I'm going to post soon!

Time to go put an IKEA shelf together, I'll be back soon..

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oops. Just noticed the link I made for David's photos was incorrect, I fixed that.

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First, thank you to ~KES and Laurie for inviting me to this outstandingly interesting thread.  Secondly, let me say how enriching it has been, Sandra, to meet you through your various responses and the links you’ve provided, as well as through your choice of embedded video clips, (and by viewing portions of your generous profile).  I’ve only just met you, and it’s already abundantly clear that you have such an open and sharing spirit, and even though I haven’t bumped into you within the gaia community that I can recall, I wouldn’t be surprised to find that if I went back and took a closer look, our paths have probably crossed.  In any case, it’s very nice to meet you.  Thank you for the wealth of information you have shared.  
 
I haven’t had time to read the first page yet, (but I can bet it’s every bit as juicy as this page), but since my time is very limited, I’m going to have to save page one of this thread for my next opportunity, and just go ahead and jump into the mix now, and catch up with everyone else later.
 
Writing.  Something which fills me to the brim, and can just as easily leave me as empty as a grieving mother’s aching arms.  I’ve never written anything professionally, but writing has served me very well during an extended healing process at a troubling time in my life.  Even today, I will often turn to the writing in an effort to take apart the pieces and reconstruct them in a way that will make life livable again.  Of course, sometimes writing is simply where I go to play and relax.  And other times, writing is the bridge that connects me to people who are searching for the words that will set us both free.  Writing is about as good as it gets.  Even though writing scares me silly, I can’t seem to stop writing. 
 
Sandra, earlier you quoted Harlan Ellison, “With each new step presenting the possibility of learning a truth about oneself that is too terrible to bear”.  You betcha.  That one will keep you quiet for a long time.  Keep you far away from the keyboard.  Of course, you went on to show the flip side of the coin, too.  But that quote really resonated with me.  Often I let my fear of discovering difficult truths stand in the way of any kind of movement at all.  Easier to stay huddled in silence, with my eyes closed against truths that might be “too terrible to bear”. 
 
Writing can be a way of prying these truths out into the light of day, where they can be faced with courage and dignity and compassion, especially if someone is lucky enough to be part of a supportive group, (such as the Diving Deeper writing group).  I haven’t yet had the opportunity to poke about in the DD workshop, but it certainly sounds like the kind of place that is a safe environment for even the most terrible of truths to be given voice.  How wonderfully generous of you to lend your time to such a place;  a space for exploration and experimentation and growth.     
 
In a response to OM earlier, you also said, “I'm concerned that I'm sounding a bit superior here, I don't mean to.”  Yep.  Uh-huh.  I often go back and read something I’ve written, and then ask myself who the heck I think I am to be expounding on any subject as if I had anything remotely unique or useful to add to the conversation.  It can be embarrassing to see my words prancing around on the page like some pompous little fairytale prince.  I’m surprised my head hasn’t completely come unhinged from the number of times I’ve stared at the computer screen, reading my latest contribution, shaking my head in disbelief.  More than once my fingers have wandered over to the delete button, even though my inner voice seems to want to argue that the words should stand as witness to my folly.  Still, those darn words just keep wanting to put on their fancy clothes and strut across the page.  Thanks for revealing this internal dialogue that can stand in the way of our ability to write.  Finding a balance between communicating and preaching can be tricky, but hopefully if we continue to practice the art of writing, we can lean more in one direction than the other.  Hopefully.
 
Laurie said “My muse is tidiness and order.  When everything is clean and in its place, I can write until the cows come home!  But, if things are off kilter, the blooms on my creative blossom curl in, shrivel up and refuse to flow.”  This one is a bit of a new revelation for me, even though it would seem to be a no-brainer.  I’ve always thought more in terms of some elusive muse that comes and goes at whim, but it certainly can’t HURT to make the environment more inviting, now can it?  Thank you, Laurie, for sharing this insight.
 
Terrill asked about whether you are still accepting new members to DD, and how to join, etc.  Thanks to Terrill for asking the question I would have been too inhibited to ask, and thank you, Sandra, for taking the time to make it clear and understandable, and for providing the helpful links that point the way.  I will be one of the people who will wander off in that direction when time permits. 
 
It sure does help to have the “awkward walking into a room full of people” part of it out of the way.  Now we can poke our head in and say hello, or we can spend some time just watching and listening, without feeling as if we’ve got our ear surreptitiously glued to the wall, eavesdropping on a party to which we haven’t been invited.  Thanks for saying it’s okay to observe, and try it on for size.  That bit of information might be the very nugget that gets some folks to take the plunge, (not naming any names, of course).  Thanks for extending the welcome mat, and for giving us some places to go for guidelines and information.  Very useful and helpful, and much appreciated.
 
Finally, Terrill said, “I’m looking forward to leisurely re-reading these posts next week with a pot of tea to keep me company as I sink deeply into each contribution.”  Ditto for me.  Right now, my time is a non-existent entity which is more elusive than a three-headed unicorn with diamond eyes and gilded wings, (which would explain why I’m writing this at 3am). 
 
I’ve thoroughly enjoyed meeting you, Sandra, and sincerely appreciate the wealth of information you (and others) have shared in this thread, and look forward to coming back again at my very next opportunity.  Please forgive me for jumping in and taking up so much space, and then disappearing again, but I couldn’t resist the urge to extend my thanks for the bountiful treasures that you’ve sprinkled throughout this thread.  I hope to make it back in this direction before the new moon has come and gone, but please do carry on without me. 
 
Thanks again for all you’ve shared, and for your unique and valuable contribution to the gaia community.  You are truly an inspiration.  You actually made me break down and do the one thing I haven’t been able to do in more than a week.  You shook the words right out of my head, and made them fall on the page.  I have a feeling you’ve done this before, haven’t you?  (big smile)  The gaia community is lucky to have you as a contributing member.  Thanks again!

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Nancy, I'm bowled over by what - and how - you write here. I feel as if I've looked across the room, met someone's eyes, smiled, and then dived into one of those conversations that never want to end, with someone I feel I've known all my life. And you write beautifully - your heart and soul just leaping off the page. I went to read one of your blogs, and of course, it was about a subject very close to my own heart, listening -”What most often stops you from listening”. Perhaps more on that in a bit, for now I'll sit with your words here.

I resonate with everything you say about writing…Even though writing scares me silly, I can’t seem to stop writing.
 
Beautiful! Yes. And I like that you touch upon the healing aspect of writing. I'm not sure if this got covered here at all. Although Diving Deeper - in the online version and in the 'real life' version, is never promoted as a therapy – I believe the process is hugely therapeutic. I might go off on a tangent here… let's see.

There are so many kinds of writing that are therapeutic - morning pages, journals, notes to self, letters, dream journals and so on. For me, the Freefall approach has been perhaps the most therapeutic of all. What happens in the real-life groups, and what I have tried, somewhat, to emulate online with one or two of the assignments - is that participants in the groups write according to the precepts for several hours in the morning. Then, the work is handed in and the rest of the day is spent in silence, resting, having lunch etc. We gather together in the afternoon and the work is read out anonymously. The work is commented upon - always as fiction. This is one of the main guidelines in the On Commenting guidelines. No reference is made to the author, even if the work seems to be very autobiographical. For example, if the story is a harrowing tale of child abuse, we talk about the work as a story, how it affects us, what it is about the writing that gives this effect. We do not go to the writer and say, “oh how awful this happened to you, I'm so sorry. ” Absolutely not. This happened to a student of Freefall once - one of the participants in the retreat ignoring the rule of 'do not talk about the writing to the author', and that writer could not write for months afterwards.

Something extraordinary seem to happen in this process, i.e. treating the work as if it is 'fiction' (as opposed to autobiography) and the hearing your work read and commented upon anonymously.  - one is we are more able to see/hear our story as a work of art, these things 'that happened to us' - these truths too terrible to bear. It becomes easier to stop identifying with the events, to let go of what happened, and at the same time to appreciate the beauty and deep meaning of our story, no matter how painful it was at the time.

In the On Commenting thread I say something similar:

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Sandra and Nancy: My whole heart melted at this exchange. Nancy I've 'known' online since my very first forays into writing and blogging publicly, and Sandra has been, since the very beginning of this community, such a beacon and source of wisdom and inspiration and even mentorship for me. Seeing the two of you–such important women in my life here–weaving your words together here made me realize how much I cherish this place.

I wish I could put out my arms and thread my fingers through your own wise hands, those hands from which so many words have flowed, or that I could tilt my head to one side and rest in on the shoulder of one of you to smile out at the other, and to the rest of those here, or that I could exchange a real hug with each (and all!) of you. Some day, perhaps. For now this will have to do.

(And OM and Terrill and ~KES and Laurie and Meenakshi and Tai and nion and Lee and Balder and all… thank you too. :)

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Siona … this was my first chance to make it back in this direction, and it was so delicious to see your post!  There is a deep soul connection to you that I'm not even sure you ever knew existed (or maybe you did), and every time I bump into you again within the gaia community, I just can't believe who we were, and who we are now.  Even then I knew you would make me stand up and take notice some day, and you've just blown me outta the water with how you've evolved over these many years. 

You are such an inspiration, and whether our hands are laced in harmonious communion, or it is only our hearts that touch across the miles, you will always be someone that I know I'm lucky to have had the opptunity to meet.  I may never have met you in person (yet), but you are one of the most beautiful people I've ever known.  It was so good to see you here, today!

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Thanks Nancy… for expressing how we all feel about our wonderful leader Siona!  Here's a round of tea expressing the joy. I look forward someday to featuring her.

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Sandra & Nancy - Time does not permit me to write more here at this time (I'm just about to walk out the door) … but let me say that the exchange between the two of you was wonderful.  Heart-filling would be more accurate. 

Nancy - I'm soooooooo glad that you came over to read the feature and to get to know Sandra.  Now Dive.  Dive Deeper.

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Sandra and all those who are writing and listening and in satori– I realized something from your indescribably wonderful sharing above - on the web when we write a blog or a post that may not get a response; someone may be really listening.
In satori.

And when we come out and write, there are times as I see above, that what's inside really falls free; and other times when it's just a miniscule fraction of what's inside. Which is when we've to dive deeper not only within ourselves, but within the other.

In fact, this reminds me [warming up soapbox voice here] of something I realized during an inner journeying. The deeper we go within [ourself], the deeper we go within [the other].

[And I take it towards - Only god can know god but that's another story!]
[End of freefalling!!!]

You are DELIGHTFUL, Sandra. I said it in the beginning- every encounter with you and through you, is refreshing.

And Nancy, that includes you too. I am so happy that Laurie and ~KES brought you here!

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Sandra, I apologize if this has been covered and I wasn't listening; but I remember when on DD in the days when it was a public group, I had joined, enjoyed learning about commenting but found that I couldn't really keep up with the assignments [or possibly did not get around to understanding the process properly].

So in case it helps others as well: how does it help to write an assignment and freefall at the same time? In other words, isn't it the one who's writing, who can decide the topic of what they want to write about? For those who, like me, write to communicate and express rather than to be a writer, is the workshop a place where we learn how to communicate so that we can then communicate what we want to?

[And this possibly gets an award for densest question of the season!]

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Meenakshi… lots of good things here to repond to, thank you! Dense, no way!

found that I couldn't really keep up with the assignments

Just a note here on this - assignments are posted every couple of weeks or so. They absolutely do not need to be kept up with – they don't happen in any kind of sequential order. They are there simply as 'inspiration' - to be done or not, whenever.

how does it help to write an assignment and freefall at the same time? In other words, isn't it the one who's writing, who can decide the topic of what they want to write about?

“Pure Freefall” does mean one does not have a topic or anything to 'freefall' from – other than 'what comes up' as you sit down to the blank page. The most 'important' assignment is to do just this: A date with yourself. However, all  - or nearly all - of the assignments can - and should - be done with all the freefall precepts in mind. So, if the assignment is, say, 'freefall from the words “Morning at the window”' – if something 'comes up' that seems to have nothing to do with these words, that's what should be written'. The assignments are mostly 'prompts'  to help you go deeper, and other than the 'write what comes up' precept, all others should be followed - going fearwards, not editing as you write and so on.

And, there is always the Prose room & the Poetry room, where pieces that are not in response to assignments are posted.

For those who, like me, write to communicate and express rather than to be a writer, is the workshop a place where we learn how to communicate so that we can then communicate what we want to?

I would say, Yes. I take 'communication' here to be written communication (although I am sure spoken communication is also affected) If you want feedback on your work - to find out if it is engaging, expressive and so on, then Yes; and even learning how to comment is learning the art of communicating clearly and effectively.

Also, I would say 'pure freefall' triggers exactly what you are talking about – if you do the Date with yourself assignment, for example, what you actually want to communicate will arise. However.. you may discover that what you think you want to write 'about' or communicate is something quite different..

I know many people who do this work who have no plans at all on being a published writer. They do it as a way to discover deeper aspects of self, to find a greater connection to that self, and, for the sheer pleasure of it.

I hope this answers your questions?

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Yes! Sandra, unfortunately [;p] your answers mean that I'd like to apply for re-joining DD and hope that I can now that it's request-in and I may not show up on your list as I used to be a member and left. So that's the unfortunate part- that you may need to spend time asking ~Mathew to do the honors.

I was also thinking, Sandra, that I hope you'll take time to go around more on Gaia, as you used to in the earlier days of Zaadz. I know time is always an issue [my secret is - multiple tabs open so that we can jump into one while the other's loading!] There are so many newer members who would love to get to know you, and I do hope that they are doing so, through this feature.

You are a unique voice on Gaia, and actually I'm feeling that there are still sides to you that we may not have touched. Your description of your experience with satori for instance…
I looked through your blogs, because of course, that is a place where you would have shared something that I may have missed, and sure enough, found a gem- Grumpy Krishnamurti
And as I met Krishnamurti - the beatific Jiddu, as a child, I marvel at the way you've touched upon him in your blog, having never met  him.

So this is a note to self- a feature can touch upon the many facets of a person; but we can dive deeper into their profile and blogs and other activities, to get to know more about them, at leisure.
[taking the cat pic from your blog]

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Meenakshi! I'd be delighted to pester Mathew! I'll get on that tomorrow. What a treat.

You said: I hope you'll take time to go around more on Gaia, as you used to in the earlier days of Zaadz.

My sense is that things will slow down for me this year, I certainly hope so. One of the most enjoyable parts of being 'featured' as been to discover some wonderful new people, and to feel more than just a passing connection.

You said: I know time is always an issue [my secret is - multiple tabs open so that we can jump into one while the other's loading!]

Believe me I am the Queen of Tabs (there are 15 open on this window alone & I have 8 windows open, that's actually a bit thin for me!) ;-) I've STILL got to figure out your and Nicole's bi-location skills…

I'm feeling that there are still sides to you that we may not have touched.

Well, probably a few inconsequential or lumpy ones! What I get from our time together here, is a reminder that it *does* take time to connect with others, and that it's so worth putting that time in. I've really appreciated the opportunity to share - and listen - here. And, once my 'feature-hood' is over, if there are other questions or places anyone wants to dive into.. I'll be delighted to come and play - here or .. wherever.

It's time for my bed. I'll finish with an excerpt I love:

Bill Moyers interviewing Julie Taymor (she directed the Lion King and Frida)

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Julie Taymor is transformational. Her work allows the audience to fill in the blanks. She's so worth following.  Sweet slumbers to you Sandra.

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Wow, this conversation keeps “diving deeper.” Probably not surprising!!

There are a few things I want to put “on the record” here, that people can check into that would IMO be inspiring, helpful, and otherwise worthwhile!!

One is this thread, Sandra from LAX, in Diving Deeper. There are at least two profoundly significant posts of yours, and some from others, in this thread, showing to me the profound interplay between the professional/public and the personal/soul aspects of ourselves, and the courage which forms the interface between those.

I also want to thank you personally for your role in co-creating and ongoingly being a moderator for, “The Mod Pod,” Gaia's group that is of service to all Group Cultivators and Moderators and anyone interested in supporting the groups aspect of the community. We are all the beneficiaries of your dedication and the huge energy you have devoted to this service.

And speaking of your photos, I think my image of your Ireland house as a thatched cottage isn't quite accurate, as evidenced by the photos below, from your collection of photos of your house and its environs. It looks like a wonderfully spacious, clean, modern, light place. Do you experience it that way?
Love, OM 

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OM.. finally getting back to you here. Thank you for these 'on the record' pieces! Perhaps one day we have a public 'archive' version of the private pod out of which the Mod Pod grew. I think about all the incredible ideas and discussions that arose there nearly two years ago, I think about the input of our dear departed friend, Michael Sheppard.

As for our house (well, hardly 'ours', it's rented), no it's not a 'typical' Irish cottage, thank god! Unless you do some major renovations to the thatched cottage they are probably one of the more awful houses to live in. I'd rather be in a tent. I've lived in them (we lived in Donegal for a couple of years when I was a teenager). They are very dark, very damp, low ceilinged, dingy and depressing. I have no idea why there is such a fantasy about them, I suppose they look cute on the outside, much like some mud huts in Africa look cute. But live in them? Never.

Unfortunately the 'typical' 'modern' Irish house these days is, well, shall we say lacking in aesthetic interest? This is typical, but pink or apple green is probably a preferred colour here.

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Sandra … thank you for your generous words and affirmations.  I wish I had more time to spend here, and hope to return to this thread soon, (or head over to DD), but wanted to touch on just one of the many thoughts that immediately began firing as I read your reply.  Okay, maybe two, but they are connected.  Well, actually three, but again, they are all connected.  Here goes:

As to the “terrible truths”.  There are certainly plenty of terrible truths that would undoubtedly come to light in any intensive writing exercise, especially if the writer was given permission to turn off their internal editor completely, and simply speak from the heart of an experience.  Visceral and detailed images may come to life, and some of what might be shared would be difficult, for both the writer, and maybe especially so for the reader.  Terrible truths can come in all shapes and sizes.  If a writer is any good at all, that can make it even harder. 

For instance, a particular terrible truth that has recently been occupying much of my subconscious energy is the realization that many years that were spent paralyzed in fear and pain and despair were years that were squandered long past the chains of bondage were loosened.  Even though one could argue that the chains remained intact in the psychological sense, the truth of the matter is that freedom was readily available to me, yet I remained a prisoner of my past.  Taking responsibility for allowing those years to slip away is a bitter pill to swallow, but is a necessary step in halting the hands of that particular clock.  If I am to take back any part of my life at all, I must be willing to explore and reveal these terrible truths, and then find the strength and grace to move forward.  The process of this truth settling in around my bones has silenced me for a while, but thankfully, this thread has helped me rise up again and find my voice.  It might have started with the quote about terrible truths, but soon became an enthusiasm to jump into the fray and explore the ideas about writing.  So thank you, sincerely, for helping me move from A to B.    

Speaking of which, I love the concept of removing the autobiographical nature of anything written in the first person, and letting the written work stand alone as an experience within a story being told, wherein the writing of the story becomes the focus of the comments, rather than a personal connection to the author.  This approach does require some care and effort from the person leaving the comment, but allows a safe space to exist between the writer and the experience.  This is a brilliant way to leave room for truth in storytelling, yet build in a safety net that separates story from writer.  The mechanics of how the story is put together in bits and pieces (and what works and what does not) becomes no different than any story being reviewed.  Brilliant.

As to the third part of this particular snapshot, a brief comment about healing.  Just as there are many layers and flavors of terrible truths that might be revealed when excavating amongst the experiences in a writer's subconscious, it can also be said that writing is just one of the many ways that a person can move through a healing experience.  On one of your other comments, (or perhaps something I read on your profile?), you make mention of the taste and smell and texture of an experience.  Healing may not be the goal when writing about, well, for instance, the excercise of writing, but as I'm sure you are already very aware, the healing that inevitably follows on the heels of revelation can be invaluable to both writer and reader.  Someone has to be brave enough to write it, and someone else has to be brave enough to read it.  If some healing happens to fall into place during the process, well, that's a bonus.  In the end, though, it's the story that was gasping for air.

Of course, you already know all this, and even said as much within this very thread.  It just feels authentic and appropriate to take a moment to say that I have already, in a very short time, developed a deep appreciation for the talent that you lend to the writing process within the DD workshops.  Exploring the craft of writing is one thing, but elevating that exploration to include an invitation to approach the experience without boxes or parameters squeezed tightly up against the story waiting to be told is an expression of pure generosity.

Finally, even though I recognize that you are winding down this thread and I've come to the table at the end of the journey, I hope you don't mind indulging me with your response to a quick question?  I don't know who said it, but “write what you know” has always been the guidepost from which I've hoped to hang my hat, but I've always been confused about how to combine tragedy and inspiration within the same breath.  Any suggestions on how one can expose one, yet leave room for the other, without cheating either side?

Thanks again for this inspirational and extremely helpful and interesting thread.  I've managed to work my way through most of the links on this second page of the thread, and have been soaking up the morsels of shared knowledge like a sponge, in the hopes that I might actually get to retain even a smidgen of the volumes of information being exchanged.  Is there a polite way to say that I'm perfectly satiated and practically unconscious within my informational stupor, but can't seem to walk away from the bountifully laden table?  As we like to say here in Texas, “gracias, mi amiga”. 

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Nancy, now that you are with us in Diving Deeper, I just want to go there and talk, especially about the subject of 'terrible truths', at least in terms of writing.

Taking responsibility for allowing those years to slip away is a bitter pill to swallow, but is a necessary step in halting the hands of that particular clock.

Just briefly here, on a personal level, I wonder if you are not being hard on yourself? I think I say this because something resonates within me. Most of us have at least one or two 'deep' stratas of feeling/emotion; I mean the kind that destroys and hinders. For me it's guilt. Self blame for things 'I did'. I suspect I absorbed this one from my mother, as it is her primary psychic state (I'm sure there is a 'correct' term for this, but I can't think of it now). I talked a bit about my stories on the first thread - how most of them seem to cover areas of guilt and redemption. It's no surprise that these are issues for me, in my life. I do feel a very deep way through this is by writing - not necessarily 'my' stories, but stories that touch on similar issues.

I'm not suggesting there are not things in life to take stock of, to say, I did this. I need to take responsibility for this. And, for me, blame/responsibility are two different things. The former breeds guilt which is a gnarly monster, the latter encourages forgiveness and change. Well, I'm sure you know this. I suspect we all do the best we can in any given moment, and that perhaps we don't have 'choice' in the way we think we do. To shine love and light on self, and our pasts, and the present, well, when that happens…

My primary 'spiritual' teacher once said that if you truly take responsibility for what one has done in the past, (these being things one wished one hadn't done),  if one truly takes on board, all of it, fully facing what happened, the consequences, everything – it is possible to make such a quantum shift that 'what happened', did not.

Love,
Sandra

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

I've been up to my eyelashes with getting ready for my mother-in-law's arrival tomorrow.. I promise to be here soon and respond to these wonderful shares & questions!

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

I was not a member here – I wasn't aware of this group – but I happily joined it for an opportunity to celebrate and thank Sandra.  (Thanks for the invitation, OM.) 

Sandra, you have such a warm, engaging spirit.  I feel I know you although we've never met outside of Zaadz/Gaia's blogs and groups: your presence comes through clearly in your words and in your manner of sharing and connecting with others. 

I've long been a member of Diving Deeper – a fantastic community resource, especially for those of us who love to write – but it has been awhile since I participated there.  I may be participating there soon, though.  I have a “writer's issue” I'm dealing with.  I'm being asked by some of my employers at the university to consider writing a book, and of course I've wanted to do so for awhile.  But I get hung up on the notion of “having something to say” – knowing what is “out there,” in terms of thinkers and writers who are wiser and more knowledgeable than me, I have continually been getting stuck, even when contemplating writing an essay for a journal (instead of a blog).  I need to find a way to push through that resistance – or work creatively with it – somehow.  So…I may be seeing you soon on DD, Sandra dear!

All the best,

Balder

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Yay, Balder, thanks for dropping in, and boy isn't it wonderful how synchronistically we all can be helpful to one another!!

Speaking of synchronicities, there is simultaneous to this thread, a conversation in Centria/Kathy's blog in which we are just today talking about shining the light of awareness compassionately in all the dark corners of ourselves. I linked this thread there, and here's a link to there, to that section of the comments, which start just above the one linked to.

Pretty wonderfully amazing. Perhaps there is a wave of self-compassion sweeping the earth right now. Yeeehaw!!!!!!!

Love, OM 

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

OM,

Coming here from Centria's, thanks to your link.

“A wave of self-compassion sweeping the Earth right now.”

You know, I've been seeing that.  Yeah.  Wow, what a beautiful thought.   I had not put it together that way - as a movement in Spirit through so many all at once.  Like how people used to do those wave things for the media at sporting events.  OK, I'm chuckling at that comparison but a bit like that, huh?

Hmmm, just thinking of the overall influence and impact, of such a wave, is so very hopeful.

Hugs OM &
a wave at Sandra 
in passing
(may be joining Balder
there at DD soon myself)

Deb

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Balder, Siona… oh, SO lovely to see you both here. I too wish we could beam each other - all of us here - to one place for a hug. Maybe to my favourite place in California, Harbin Hot Springs, sitting by the heart pool in the dusk, listening to the crickets, smelling the hot-pine air, waiting for the stars to come out.

night night everyone.

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Sandra you've been to Harbin? I miss that place so, so much. I know exactly the pool you mean. One day! We'll sit in the water until we're wrinkled like prunes. It'll be wonderful.

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Siona… oh! yes, Harbin is almost like a second home for me. Some of my most profound experiences happened at Harbin, as usually I was there in 'group' with my teacher, Paul Lowe. The first time I went I did two retreats back to back, and ended up staying for over a month. I went back nearly every year for several years, as Paul did his summer retreats there. I can literally feel the place in the pores of my skin, the tingle of – delight and total terror as I'd enter those mad wrought iron gates, (terror because often being with Paul was absolutely terrifying. Everything in me said 'no', other than that still small voice which knew I had no choice, and which reminded me that always, always, at the end of a group I'd be in bliss…

Not to mention the fantastic physical experience of long walks in the forest, endless prune-skin dips in the pools, being wrapped in silk sarongs by the hilarious Evan, sitting over an Americano in the café watching the deer.. I'd LOVE to meet you there.

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

I think getting “stuck” and going deeper, deeper, through those stuck thoughts and feelings and impulses is the only thing that makes sense.  Although we may want to run away, it's only by going “in” that we discover something.  I found the process of writing through Diving Deeper so similar to the same process that has happened every day for 22 years.  You move in, past the resistance to discover what's inside.

The process of writing can be so challenging to some people (and still is for me at times).  I have to write a blog about today's outdoor adventure within the next hour.  The Mind says repeatedly “there is nothing to say, absolutely NOTHING to say, and don't you even try.”  It starts a litany of its own judgments and complaints and whines or whatever. 
But you sit down and let “It” say what it wants to say.  I'm not sure we're ever the writer, the creator.  At least I don't often feel like that.  Maybe some other people do.  But you let whatever comes up, come up.  And discover nuggets within, in which you can “dive deeper” to find all sorts of gold and fools gold and scrap metal and jewels. 

Sandra, I SO appreciate you for nudging me deeper and deeper so many times.  I suspect you do this with so many people you meet all the time.  Part of me feels sad to disappoint you with not writing more fiction right now, but hey, it still might happen.  You never know.  If fiction wants to come forth, it will come forth.
Love you lots!  Kathy

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Part of me feels sad to disappoint you with not writing more fiction right now, but hey, it still might happen.  You never know.  If fiction wants to come forth, it will come forth.

Kathy! I could spank you!!  Off you go and read Memoir vs Fiction again.… ;-)
And maybe this thread on Diving Deeper where Ruth so beautifully talks about her process in writing her story. (and, you NEVER disappoint me dear, I do miss your presence on Diving Deeper, for sure, but I know you are writing, I've read your beautiful blog)

For those who don't like link-hopping, I'll re-quote Sharon Butala, who is talking about 'non-fiction' writing - memoir:

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

So happy you joined the conversation, Deb, Siona, and Centria!! Just when I think this thread can't get any better, deeper, more inspiring, more valuable, it does!!!

Sandra, that blue-sky-with-clouds wall is something I would be so nourished by !!! I am delighted for you that you have such!!!

Love, OM

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

I thought I'd pop in this morning to see how things are developing in this wonderful feature and what do I find?  Sandra about to spank Kathy!  I'm still having a good laugh over that!

Sandra - thank you for re-quoting Sharon Butala.

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

tee hee! Hubby was the one who first pointed out that I have a 'smashing wand'. You can see how it's progressed below.

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Oh my…laughing so hard….can't get my breath!!  Don't you love Gaia?  Where else in the world can people say such funny things you can't stop giggling?  OK.  Try to quit laughing…

Sandra!  You are ALWAYS spanking me!  (but it's always worthwhile because you are such a PRO at this Diving Deeper.  You are always pointing the way deeper, deeper, past the first flush of words into the hidden garden sprouting wildflowers beneath the obvious.)

That's what I love about you.

I love Diving Deeper, too, but must turn where Life is turning now, wherever that may be, and it might be Diving Deeper in two seconds or it might never be again. 

OK,  agree with you TOTALLY about Memoir vs. Fiction.  For some reason, it hadn't pierced this thick skull that was where you were.

The very absolute best discussion we ever had, in my opinion, (even better than the fear/publishing discussion) was about sensuous (not sensual) writing.  Writing from the senses.  That was MIND BLOWING!  Maybe everyone else realizes this.  But to write from the the experience of the senses rather than the mind……

WOW!  That opened up such huge vistas that it felt like the earth shuddering and twisting inside the heart, a lava-hot pouring streaming out through fingers and pores and melting against the floor in puddles of red and orange and yellow heat.   (ha ha!  yes!  It is sooo fun to write like that…so elemental…so close to Awareness speaking with itself, carrying on an eternal conversation that makes the body want to shudder with the joy of it…)

On that note, must do some paperwork.

LOVE,  Kathy

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

so close to Awareness speaking with itself, carrying on an eternal conversation that makes the body want to shudder with the joy of it…

mmm, Kathy! all I can do here is hum (or is that purrrr?) in sensual agreement :-)

Off to bed now, hugs.

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Thanks a lot Kathy & Sandra for bringing the post about sensuous (not sensual) form of writing.  Each one of you on that golden thread have shared the magic of writing on best discussion.  I am such a fan of all of you & your prolific writings!!!  Thanks for being a stellar Gaia friends.

Your blog gives all such a beautiful and refreshing break and not only inspires me to get out doors more and take nature photos, but you give the world such an amazing experience on the web!

Opening the door, walking outside 
A 365 day blogging promise to spend time each day in the great outdoors 
Keep up the great works!

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

A 365 day blogging promise to spend time each day in the great outdoors
I think you have to join us in Harbin, Kes! right now I'm off to your blog….

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Wow, it's Kathy's blog! How does she manage it.. there and here, and … amazing. Gorgeous photographs and writing(s).
I really think we ALL have to get to Harbin.

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Thanks for the link to the outdoor blog, KES!  You are always so thoughtful.  Say, Sandra, do you have a blog outside of Gaia?  Or a website where you post any of your writings or maybe info about Diving Deeper?  Have you ever had any desire to write blogs…or do you instead choose to focus your energy on writing and sending out work to publishers?  

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Kathy  - I have a very old website from my email counselling days - www.sandrajensen.net. It's supposed to have been changed for months now - developed into a 'writing' specific website, but my “IT” friend is always busy and I'm always busy….. I have some information there about my writing and about Diving Deeper, but no more than is on my profile page at Gaia and on Diving Deeper here. The new website is supposed to have a blog integrated into it. I'll keep you posted.

When I started here at Zaadz - I loved writing blogs, but this kind of writing is not a challenge for me – and yes, it takes time away from my other writing. So these days it's mostly just posting up videos or music or pictures or articles I like and want to share.

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Wow Kathy, thanks to your question, I delved into Sandra's website. Sandra, I felt it was me writing “I believe I'm here to experience life in all its aspects, each aspect to its fullest.”

And I have enjoyed getting to know even more about you and what you have done. So you've been in Dharamsala! I wonder if it was when I visited - in the late 70s! Probably not. You were barely a child then! Again I see that features in the best possible way, open up windows into a person, and then it can take a lifetime to get to know them. It is a pity really for me that you don't blog 'enough' because there could be so much we could share that way. But I guess that's what being a writer means. You've to stay focused.

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

:-) Meenakshi! I was in Dharamsala about 6 years ago… I'm sure it's much much changed since you were there. (and I keep forgetting to say how envious I am that you met Jiddu Krishnamurti! I 'discovered' him 2 years after he died)…

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Speaking of nature and Harbin, and also of getting to know a person well, prompts me to share (with permission) one more facet of Sandra that's different from the others we've been exploring so far!

Sandra and I were talking via email about anything that might still be relevant to the feature. She said perhaps her health journey. She sent me a link to what she's written about it on her site, which is here: http://www.sandrajensen.net/mybody.html We had a conversation about it which we decided to share in this thread.

The conversation went like this… .

After reading the linked article, I responded
As I have learned a lot of alternative and natural medicine during the course of my own decades of dealing with my own stuff, I did see a few things you didn't mention, that you might consider. If you don't feel adviced-out, I'd be glad to indicate some areas for possible investigation.

Sandra responded:
I'd be interested, yes, definitely, but truthfully not on a personal level in terms of my health. I'm not actually, in spite of what that page might indicate, on any kind of journey to 'fix' my health (at least these days) – if something comes my way that my intuition says yes to, then I will look at it but not so much to get better more to simply trust intuition, not very different to having, say, a story idea or a yes to go somewhere, or an interesting food to try.

I AM interested in other people's physical journeys and how this all pieces together in a much larger picture of how the world is, how I am, how we are all connected. I believe health is not 'better' than illness, just different. So few people approach illness this way. I don't particularly want advice - this seems to buy into a way of seeing the world/person as needing to be different/fixed and this attitude, in my experience, possibly causes far more suffering than any sickness/disease. I have felt far 'worse' when I've desperately sought after remedies than when I am simply 'with' what is.

I appreciate hearing from people who share their own physical experiences, or those who ask me questions rather than give suggestions. The piece written by Ken Wilber's 'letter' about his (somewhat similar) illness that I mention on my 'health' page is worth looking at - he puts it rather more vehemently than I do (here's the link to Ken's piecehttp://www.integralworld.net/redd.html).

I don't know if you watched the documentary of Farrah Fawcett's illness. I'm not sure I suggest you do, as it's absolutely harrowing. However for me it was such an extraordinary showing of 'fighting' and 'fixing' – to me it appeared she was in a war with her body. I found it heartbreaking – more than the physical suffering she went through with all the protocols.

—————————
And my (OM's) response to that I'd like to share here. I am exploring the possibility of yet another perspective about health and illness, but I'm kinda thinking as I write, so perhaps it will turn out to be not different.

Sandra, as I understand the possible perspectives about illness that you've described, they are:

Be at war, in battle, with one's body. Health is better than illness, and my health/body need to be different, need to be fixed. Desperately seeking after remedies to “fight” illness.

I find myself in complete agreement with you that such an attitude ends up creating more suffering than illness itself does! This attitude toward illness is of a piece with a fighting-fixing attitude toward anything we don't want. So many reasons that is hurtful. One: What we resist, persists. Two: Neither bodies nor children nor adults are inclined to change when pushed, condemned, and regarded as an enemy. IMO empathy, compassion, and gentle making-aware of opportunities are far more conducive to change.

(You're right about the Fawcett clip. I would be greatly upset at the needless suffering she went through, partly from her attitude, and partly from whatever blind cooperation she did with the very hurtful medical approach in such cases, and I didn't watch it! Echoes of my own sister.)

The other perspective you described seems to be this:
Health is not better than illness, just different. I don't need to fix my health, I don't need to get better, I don't particularly want advice, I am simply “with” what is. I pay attention to advice when my intuition says to, and my motive for that is abiding by my intuition.

I (OM speaking now) myself have had physical pain and dysfunction, chronic, since the day I was born, 7 decades ago. I have been through many phases of relating to it. Where I've ended up doesn't seem to fit either perspective just described.

I don't share the first perspective very much, though part of me still regards my body as the enemy which hurts me for no reasons I seem capable of discovering – thus creating a very painful sense of helpless in the face of this enemy – and sometimes I am the body's enemy, doing – for my own reasons – things I know in advance will hurt the body. OTOH, I am increasingly able to BE in the realization that “my body and I are One.”

Re the second perspective, I am still working toward being at peace with the possibility that I'll never be as healthy as I can imagine being, and toward simply having compassionate awareness of my body as it is. The challenge is that pain is highly motivating to the human self; we do what we can to avoid it and fix it, even if that means rejecting our awareness of it!

While I don't believe in “needing” to battle or fix, something within me still moves toward health. I think I DO regard health as “better” than illness. For several reasons. First, I believe there is a template of health for each body, and on the physical level, there are things we choose to do which create deviations from that template. We ingest known poisons, we neglect warning signs, we deprive our bodies of nutrients, etc. And we neglect doing our research to find causes and “cures” when our body is in pain and dysfunction. (Certainly you have done your research, Sandra, an amazing amount of it!)

But even more importantly, I see the body as a simple expression on its level of consciousness of aspects of consciousness on other levels of us, namely our beliefs, attitudes, both conscious and subconscious AND carried on the soul level (from lifetime to lifetime, in my perspective.) In a word, it is my perspective that if my body is deviating from the optimal health inherent in its particular template, there are some dark corners in my mind or soul which are thereby being called to my attention. Which are using my body's pain and dysfunction to provide me with an opportunity to know and love those rejected aspects of myself I have relegated to those dark corners. In other words, there is work I can choose to do, or not, relevant to my health.

This all has nothing to do with blame or guilt about causing my pain or dysfunction. People who take on “responsibility” for their health within the victim-perpetrator-rescuer framework can fall into that trap, which I believe is a big mistake, and leads to ever more suffering.

It's simple cause and effect, for me. Pain = Hello, here's a message that something needs the loving light of compassionate awareness. I can persist until that is accomplished, or not.

This also has nothing to do with NEED to get well. That NEED is often based in fear, and is really motivated by hidden what we might call neurotic agendas that go far beyond mere health. And that end up perpetuating or increasing suffering.

So, it's a fine line, seeing possibilities of health, regarding them as “better” in the sense of more desirable, a preference, not a need based on judgment, and then being motivated to engage in activity (inner or outer) toward more health, without blaming, battling, fixing.

When I regard my body with compassion, I feel highly motivated to do what I can to allow it to function at its highest, maximal, optimal potential of health. I do have the “value” that something expressing at its highest potential, living “full out,” is “better” than living cramped, in suffering. Again, this is not a judgment, the “better” is not moral, it simply has to do with something being what it is, and realizing its potential. Perhaps I am saying that I value realizing potential, expressing potential.

I think all change begins with true acceptance of what is. But I don't see acceptance of what is as an end, as requiring passivity, non-action. Existence is dynamic, life is ever-changing, and the trajectories of The Flow show up as motivations in us. But they show up most clearly after we are in true acceptance.

IOW, in every case, it's best not to “argue with reality,” and in every case, whatever happens or doesn't happen is “perfect” from the highest perspective. So ultimately we get to the point of allowing whatever happens. In that view, none of the three approaches to illness is any better or more preferable than the others. Yet, all three exist, and whichever one we go with, that's perfect too. So I feel motivated, you perhaps don't, others battle.

So the bottom line for me is that I am in as much compassionate awareness as I can muster; I am highly motivated to pursue all opportunities for greater consciousness of whatever previously-hidden aspects of my consciousness might be relevant to my health issues; I am highly motivated toward “research” of physical things that might be done (and yes, guided by intuition) and I live in an odd mixture of hope, of knowing, and of determination, to be optimally healthy. I just feel it is my life-choice, my destiny if you will, to be optimally healthy, even though it appears that would take a miracle, and I am open to a miracle. So, all that, without blame, judgment, need, guilt, fix, battle.

I just wanted to outline another possibility, in case it's helpful to anyone, and dang, this got a lot longer than I had planned, but hey, there's no rule that inputs to a conversation have to be short, right?

I realize many people have written a great deal on this subject, and there are even groups within Gaia who spend their time on this subject, so forgive my hubris in holding forth here. Guess you have done your thing, Sandra, of triggering writing!!! – because I've never set out my views before, even though this subject is near and dear to my body and soul, being a huge part of my life path.

I can't wait to hear how you and others will respond in ways that will enrich and expand us all !!!!

Love and Gratitude, OM

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

OM – yes this is *such* a huge subject, and why I was hesitant to bring it up here - but heck, it's all good :-)

I don't find myself at odds with what you write. I go through all the perspectives you suggest, and a few more besides, I'm sure! frequently.

There were somethings that jumped out at me to talk more about:

- partly how you worded your response was worded about Farrah Fawcett - I can't specifically say how it was worded, more something in between the lines, as if she 'could have done it better' - differently, in a way that created less suffering for her. Perhaps she could have, part of me 'felt' that way, (or 'thought' that way, all I felt was sadness, actually). What I saw in the documentary was someone in great pain, trying to move out of pain. Who can blame her? Perhaps the sadness I felt was that it seemed - to me - that there were no other possibilities for her other than a particular kind of battle against the illness she had. But I could not say that she should have done it differently. Perhaps this route was exactly 'right' for her.

and this bit:

there are things we choose to do which create deviations from that template. We ingest known poisons, we neglect warning signs, we deprive our bodies of nutrients, etc. And we neglect doing our research to find causes and “cures” when our body is in pain and dysfunction.

Do we really choose? I wrote the following recently, in another, private forum outside Gaia It's also long (and yes, the Mushin I mention is Mushin here!):

—————-

I'm still with a very powerful possibility: that we don't, in fact, have any choice at all - that my being here today didn't come out of a choice I made - to be, what? More 'available'?? Sounds like a kind of over-used term I've heard said. Choice more and more seems to be something that my mind manufactures to make me feel safer, more in control.

I'm not sure I can explain this intellectually .. what I mean by 'no choice'. For me the understanding.. the 'grokking' of this was almost slightly satori-esque. I'd been chatting to Mushin ( a friend in Berlin) and regurgitating something I'd been told by a mentor of mine:  'we have only one choice, where to put our attention'. Mushin paused and then said, “I don't even know if we have that choice”. I felt a bit like someone had put a spoke in my wheel, and I liked it a lot.

We actually don't know for a fact that we make choices. I know it feels like we do, but do we?

There are many 'scientific' studies showing that it's possible to predict what a person is going to do **before they know it themselves.** (i.e. before they are thinking, I'm going to do this, and before they actually do it  even if they don't think about it first). So who is choosing? What is choosing? Do we choose in some way other than the way we think we do (i.e. by thinking)? Is choice made before we are conscious of the choice? And if so, how/why is that choice made?

For me the 'no choice' possibility has powerful ramifications. It means a settling - a surrendering to what is. Letting go of trying to control.

So often I think I'm responsible for, well, everything. I don't mean this in healthy way of being responsible, what I mean is neurotic thinking - which is about 'blame'. I suspect we all do this - either blaming ourselves, or others. As if we are independent of each other, independent of the whole world.

A few days ago another dear friend was talking about someone she knew who had cancer. This woman asked a healer, “But I want to know WHY I have this cancer”. As if she was to blame, or something specific was to blame. The healer said, (with a twinkle in his eye, apparently): “Everything that has ever happened in the whole universe - all the universes, forever and ever - caused your cancer”.

What he said is connected to the 'we have no choice' thing - it's not about things being fated, or us being puppets, or us not being responsible, it's about seeing the larger picture. Being part of the larger picture. The much much larger picture.

And if I decide to do something completely different from what my patterns
are does it make any difference?

Perhaps whatever we 'do' is one note in a vast concert, a gazillion strings vibrating, and each vibration cascading into another, causing ripples of more notes, more music. Is one 'note' independently 'choosing' to vibrate a particular way? Or is that vibration 'caused' by a multitude of ripples? Is the one 'note's purpose (eg, 'to be happy' ) independent of the whole?

I don't know…

————————-

So. This is me here, now. and back to the subject of illness… Deena Metzger is a healer. She is married to a healer, and has worked beside some of the most phenomenal healers alive today (I'd reccommend looking at her writings on her website here: & here is someone's experience of working with her and the African healer Mandaza Kandemwa article). When I was with her recently, we talked about 'listening'. We talked about giving all living things the same presence, the same listening. What are the rocks saying? Really saying? And, what is the virus saying? Is the life of a virus different to the life of a person? A deer? A drop of water? An atom? Can we choose to kill one and not the other, and say this 'is right'? Deena is not saying it isn't right to kill a virus, or a bacteria - what she is saying is, let's take another look at all this, what is the 'story' the illness - the bacteria, even - is telling us?

She writes: Illness is a story.  It calls us to healing beyond our physical selves: a strange contradiction.  Suffering from an affliction invites us to step into a realm of healing that can benefit ourselves, our communities and the world.  Illness is, therefore, at the very core of healing.  Not a contradiction but the strange dance of creation. Over many years, I have come to understand that illness and medicine have become the way of transformation of individuals in this culture and may be the way of transformation of the culture itself.

I feel strongly about the 'projections' we (I) put onto 'ill' people. We treat them 'differently' as lesser somehow, or impaired - as with those who have 'disabilities'. Why? Perhaps these people are the shamans, the priests and priestesses, the discoverers, exploring what it means to be human in all ways - perhaps what Farrah experienced was a phenomenally courageous act, to find out what that particular path meant, was, felt like.

I'm sure there is more.. but it's time to make supper!

Love,
Sandra

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

I'm dashing off to a meeting, but thanks for your prompt response, Sandra. I have skimmed it, and actually probably am in accord and resonance with everything you say! I won't dare get started writing about my WHOLE view about choice, because I think from a bird's eye or God's eye view, free will is a paradox and at root an illusion (= optional reality, although all realities are optional, haha.) So I suspect I'd love all of what Mushin was saying.

And I really resonate with my brief look at Deena's view of healing. Plus you are probably right about my subconscious opinion about Farrah, which differs from my conscious view, which is yours. 

And somehow I knew you would say exactly what you said, that you had all those perspectives and more besides. LOL !!!!!

So rich, so rich. Thank you.
Love, OM

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

This is such a beautiful exchange, so beyond an agree-disagree illness-health free-will destiny dichotomies, that I'm glad light is being shed on it. No words to add beyond that.
Perhaps - thank you!

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Just checked in and ended up reading so much. This is a fantastic meander of information, that long freefall of individual perspectives all so brilliantly shining. This is Gaia. I want to say, Sandra that Harbin changed my life and I ended up to and froeing from Laguna for at lest five years. It was where I discovered Watsu and Harold Dull. It was where I discovered hot and cold (best at 5 am). It was where I discovered myself, in my skin. Waterjourneys is in fact a mini Harbin.

It would be amazing for us all some day to sit in the blue room or by the heart pool and muse on this wave of compassion gently cascading over humanity.
Om,thank you for hosting this jewel.

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

waterheart! I suspect we might have crossed paths in Harbin.
And hot and cold,(over and over again) my absolute favourite. I wasn't going to mention it as unless you've done it.. well..it sounds like madness.. (that first toe in the hot pool and you think you are going to boil alive)…  and lying under the fig tree afterwards, all my cells singing, and yes, Watsu - my first watsu ended up as a waterdance - I could have stayed down there forever. Once, I saw the eye of a whale gazing at me.

Waterjourneys looks just wonderful. Have you ever been to the Liquidrom in Berlin? Nothing like Harbin, but a wonderful place to give watsu.

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Sandra I am a bit late on this, but just adding a note to the dance, I was in East Germany at the original Liqiud Sound Temple built by Mickey Remann and Marianne Schneider..it was incredible to work there. So I added underwater speakers to my pool and began recording specific music to use…

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Yeah, I got an easy one, and soooo profoundly delightful.
:))
OM

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Om.. Yeah, I got an easy one

! I'd say it's a dance.. we are all in this dance together, each one a part of the whole.

Thank you for being such a wonderful guide here for me.

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Sandra & Contributors ~ You know when some artistic collaborations just achieve so much that it makes a new summit to aspire to? That’s what you have done on Gaia Networking~Enhance your Community Experience .

I’m not a trained writing expert. I can’t tell you why the conversations between everyone that contributed were so transporting and marvelous. As a co-creation all of your writing magic on this feature, you've left me mesmerized learning more from the conversations while diving deeply on a social community for the first time. Admiring, captivated, enraptured, totally absorbed in the moment. For the most part… blissed out! Thanks! Lee

image

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Look what we did to Lee!! Wooo hoooo !! A blissed-out cat !

I'm hearing the first notes of our grand finale to this sweet suite, and Lee's note is a beautiful transition more fully into that. 

I hardly know what to say. What has unfolded has been scintillating, all the more awesome for being an improv, a group improv!!!!!!

Sandra, you have shared so generously of yourself, and evoked/encouraged that from others, and I venture to say we are all in Lee's blissed-out state. Thank you from the bottom of our hearts for the time and energy you have put into our conversation, and for the Sandra-self we know and love even more now. We have been inspired, warmed, and nudged!

And the same is true re everyone here. I am so grateful for the time and energy you have put into our conversation, and for your selves we all know and love even more now!!

The conversation is not over; I think others are still intending to drop by, and if you have been waiting for a break to speak up, now's the time!!!! But we are in the grand finale, and how sweet it is and has been.

Love to all,
OM Bastet

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Lee :-) blissed out is good, very good.
waterheartt… funny, when I mentioned the liquidrom I had this feeling that perhaps you'd 'been there, done that' waaaay before me!
OM..mm yes, does feel like a wrap party, that nice feeling when people are dribbling out, the music is low, perhaps there is a small puppy-pile in the corner, candles are almost out, and hey, yes, theres a late-comer laughing and staggering up the stairs, and you (I) don't want it to end, I'm so tired I'm not tired, I want to see the dawn rise, and wander arm-in-arm to a little café for cafe au lait and fresh croissants (or bagels and an Americano), legs dangling over the sea (where am I? I don't know, but it's lovely)… maybe there is someone playing an instrument somewhere…

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Wow, Sandra, thanks for inviting Jake to the party! He really gets into his playing! And I felt I was sitting right at his feet watching and listening.

Oh, it has been my great honor and delight to “be your guide” in this feature. And that's an understatement. I'm just awed by what has been co-created here by everyone. Flat-out awed.

And chuckling at the vividness of your party-wrap description!

Love, OM

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Glad you like Jake, OM! I think he is amazing. You can spend a fabulous hour or two on YouTube watching other videos of him ..eg this one which I love, and the one below where he chats a bit and plays for the audience, faster and faster.. until, you think he can't possibly go faster but he does. I think he is one of those musicians who enter the music so fully that it becomes something 'else'. I sense he enters a space that I look for in writing - when *I* am not writing… it doesn't happen often, but when it does, it's wonderful.

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Yes, through the years I have discovered a number of virtuoso musicians, and followed their work with awe. There's something “transporting” about listening to them, isn't there!?

I can't believe the audience was so noisy in the one you hyperlinked to. I would have been rapt.

Well, yes, he can play fast, but he also seems like a sweet and reasonably mentally healthy guy!!

My favorite contemporary guitarist (not ukelele, to be sure) is Luis Mejia, but I can't find him on YouTube!! He made a couple of CD albums, the only one I have heard is Alegria, and it is playing that makes you weep with awe.

Love, OM  

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

And on those notes, we draw this awesome symphony to an apparent end. I say “apparent” because Sandra and I will be monitoring the thread. In case anyone wants to say something more, someone will respond!!

I won't repeat all I said a few posts ago, just a heartfelt thanks to Sandra and everyone who made this such a delightful and profound experience for so many of us.

Blessings, OM Bastet

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Thanks OM, thank you everyone, the wonderful moderators of this wonderful group, and all those who have dived in here. It's been a complete pleasure - If there is anything I feel is 'missing' it's hearing more from you rather than me. OM asked me what I had enjoyed the most about being featured. I would say it has to be meeting new people, making new friends, deepening already existing friendships. It's renewed my joy in being here on Gaia, reminding me what this community does so well - what is, ultimately the most important thing: sharing, connection, listening, being together.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
With love,
Sandra

p.s. and yes, if there is anything 'more' - from anyone - I'll be here :-)

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

..secretly smiling at these words:

“OM asked me what I had enjoyed the most about being featured. I would say it has to be meeting new people, making new friends, deepening already existing friendships. It's renewed my joy in being here on Gaia, reminding me what this community does so well - what is, ultimately the most important thing: sharing, connection, listening, being together.”

This is such a treat, dear Sandra, that I suspect many of us are reading and listening and moving [trying very hard not to say diving deeper - but now I've said it] with all those who've posted. You know you can always find us everywhere on Gaia, where we talk and share and so on.

Of course, nowadays I am really enjoying my renewed experience with the DIVING DEEPER: A Writing Workshop pod. I just can't believe what an amazing gift this is, that you and the others have brought to Gaia.

OM, thank you so much for the stupendous way in which  you've brought this feature to us.

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Sandra, I'm thrilled at your response.

Cool, Meenakshi!!!!

All I remember doing was holding space and blabbing, haha. I don't recall any significant steering was required. This feature brought itself, with the many contributors.

Love, OM

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

Heads -up! Sandra will be away from home [and possibly Gaia] on her birthday [Aug 31st] - so we're leaving grapevines for her!

Re: Part Two of Diving Deeper with Sandra Jensen

mmm… can those be concord grapevines? ;-)
Yes, I'll be away from Thursday - Tuesday, only online once or twice if at all.
xo