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Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changing?Amber said Nov 19, 2008, 10:45 PM: |
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“The world's economy is in a shambles… and here we are… a community who wants to change the world… and very seldom do we discuss the sad state of the world, and what we can do about it… |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changAmber said Nov 19, 2008, 11:00 PM: |
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Here are a couple of articles Keith brought to my attention many of you may want to read up on… I found them to be very interesting as they are full of statistics and I'm a statistic junky! Did you know that in the 20's and 30's; Depression 2009: What would it look like?Or how about this; Breakdown of the Global Monetary System by summer 2009Keith, seriously, that link is an extremely DRY read but I had no idea that our economic system actually had a name… the Bretton Woods II (2) system. I thought that it had magically evolved from the barter system or something but we all got tired of carrying around gold bars and went with paper!While this seems all gloom and doom to someone who's got much money in the stock market… I have a little nest egg myself… it also has me feeling more optimistic about the creativity of humanity to let the Titanic slip gently into the ocean while we create plenty of life boats for all to step into a new reality not yet decided upon! Smiles! amber |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changDaughter of Zion said Nov 23, 2008, 9:05 AM: |
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So right you are! I find that this is the perfect opportunity for me as well as others to get back in touch with what they truly love. I had never invested much money in stocks, save for my 401(k), and most of my money is just saved up for times like these. I spend less, am more conscious of what I buy and what I do…and I had decided to start selling my handcrafted accessories and apparel and just have fun with my life. I walk to almost everywhere and I catch a train to work…so I save a ton on gas money. I'm fairing pretty well from living within my means. A lot of my neighbors aren't doing so well, mainly because they can't spend their money like they can't. But I ask them: is it so important to have so many things? Work on the basics and build from there…and most of the things we want comes to us with some creativity and some ingenuity. It's just a great time right now to take a pause in our life and instead of crying about what we don't have in our life…let's be grateful for the many things we do have in our lives. |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang~KES said Nov 19, 2008, 11:37 PM: |
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Here is a youTube on permaculture by Geoff Lawton. I have two great articles on Economics - April 1966 and Economics - War & Tax - March 1969 that help those new to this subject written by L. Ron Hubbard. I am happy to answer any questions on this as well as learn of the latest on this subject. Thanks and best of luck on this. Kathy
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changKeith said Nov 20, 2008, 7:54 AM: |
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The Bretton Woods meeting took place just before the end of WWII … in New Hampshire. I've been there and its a cool place. The room where the meeting took place is set aside and is now akin to a museum. |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changDave said Nov 20, 2008, 9:36 AM: |
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Hey Keith and great discussion everyone! |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changKeith said Nov 20, 2008, 1:04 PM: |
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Dave, I'd be extremely careful how you describe the situation in Canada. You may have several million show up on your doorstep. |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changDave said Nov 20, 2008, 1:29 PM: |
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Agreed Keith, |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changJackie said Nov 22, 2008, 12:39 PM: |
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Don't worry, I bet you'll get into a groove. I use to be (hehe, I'm recovering!) a big collector of everything. One day I just purged and purged and out the door it all went! I actually felt really good to get rid of it all. Boxes that were in storage for over a year and I hadn't needed a single thing - to Good will they went. Well, everything but my grandma's plates : ) |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changNightphoenix said Nov 20, 2008, 12:34 PM: |
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Let's look at the root of the problem. What is the economy based on? I have heard it said that money it's base on everything from women to black gold ( oil ) but in the end it's in the eyes of the beholder. That's right it's perception that decides the dollar. Consder alternatives to the current economy such as points from companys being exchanged for products from another company completely tax free because it isn't techinically money. Wait you say — the irs would just draft a new law to include points. Yes you are correct so the problem is really money it's really big brother. We can't get ahead as long as big brother has his hands in our pockets. But how do you change a system designed by lawyers? |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changAmber said Nov 20, 2008, 9:24 PM: |
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Great conversation everyone! |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang~KES said Nov 21, 2008, 1:34 AM: |
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I found this at the end of the article: THE QUESTION The relationship of any man to economics is a simple one: “HOW CAN I LIVE?” To that adheres the question, how can his dependents and his community live? Whenever a person asks this question or any version thereof in this, the complex society of today, he is asking, “What is economics” In this article, short as it is, all the vital factors of economics are listed. What needs to be guaranteed is that one’s economic destiny is not managed by men who hate and who will not be comfortable until all other men are slaves. The long-term solution to the question “How can I live?” is: Never work for a suppressive firm and do not support a suppressive government. And work to put us in a position to guarantee that leaders are sane.” Chris has the best blogs to read for starters that bring about a clear understanding of the current scene. Thanks to him for being such a prolific writer with great insight. |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang1Vector3 said Nov 20, 2008, 11:37 PM: |
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a silent revolt by becoming less and less productive |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changHeyOK said Nov 21, 2008, 1:02 AM: |
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Hello all - commenting to keep abreast of the dialog in my inbox. Good to see the views and info flowing. |
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What's AheadKeith said Nov 21, 2008, 11:59 AM: |
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Re: What's AheadFastDart said Nov 21, 2008, 5:31 PM: |
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There were some interesting things said on Coast to Coast AM on November 19th. that echo many of the points you bring here Keith. |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changrugged_gurl1 said Nov 21, 2008, 2:28 PM: |
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I wrote a post about the economy– http://discoverfarther-w-humanity.gaia.com/blog/2008/11/what_was_the_last_thing_you_wondered_about |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang~KES said Nov 21, 2008, 3:20 PM: |
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Gaia is a spiritual site filled with religions from around the world. The Federal Reserve, excerpts of the Banking Crisis! By Mark Arnold The Ultimate Casualty Just as I was completing this “Bailout” series, Congress was debating the Housing Bill which has the purported purpose of assisting mortgage challenged homeowners as well as bailing out secondary mortgage market giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. On July 23rd 2008 the U.S. House of Representatives passed this bill by a vote of 272 to 152. On Saturday July 26th it passed the Senate and was signed into law by President Bush on July 30th. Exactly what does this bill do? The first thing to understand is that the provisions of the bill authorize an increase of the country’s debt ceiling to a staggering $10.6 trillion. That is an increase of $800 billion from this bill alone. For those of you who do not track national debt figures, $800 billion is about what our entire national debt was in 1978. (It took 65 years, 1 depression, numerous recessions,4 shooting wars and one cold war to acquire that debt, starting from 1913, the inauguration year of the Federal Reserve. This bill accomplished that with a stroke of Bush’s pen.) The next thing to understand is that the bill provides massive funds for that Fannie/Freddie bailout, should it be needed. Rest assured…it will be needed. According to Ron Paul, Representative from the state of Texas, the bill authorizes what is in effect a blank check to bailout Fannie and Freddie to the tune of what could be as much as $100s of billions before it is all through. This would be done through the U.S. Government purchase of the compromised mortgage backed securities and effectively transfers their liability and loss to the American people. The bill is indeed, as Representative Paul describes it, “the mother of all bailouts.” It dwarfs in size previous bailouts, saddles the tax payer with a huge liability and becomes the logical ne plus ultraof the banking game as it has been played. It also is another inflationary response to the problem as it authorizes the creation of more billions from nothing which further depresses the value of our beleaguered dollar, already sitting at all time lows on international markets. In the end the ultimate casualty of this sort of action is the money itself; in our case “the dollar.” The Fed and Government bailout and inflationary response to the current banking crisis is an effort at a short term solution that guarantees the longer term problem and that problem is the loss of the currency itself. The inevitable end of inflation is the demise of money through rendering it valueless; exactly like the goldsmith who issued too many receipts relative to the gold he had on deposit. And when the dollar goes what replaces it? Is the “Amero”right around the corner? Incidentally, there are several other provisions in the bill of note. It is required by the bill that anyone working in the mortgage industry be fingerprinted. Also required is that every single credit card transaction by U.S. citizens be reported to the IRS. This is an outrage! Are we to assume that this crisis was precipitated by not having mortgage brokers fingerprinted? What right should the IRS have to your credit card transactions? Why would these be in the Housing Bailout Bill? A Perfect Financial Storm Were I the type to say, “I told you so,” now would be the time to say it. Back in July at the outset of this Bailout series I talked about the failures of Bear Stearns and Indy-Mac Bank and predicted that many more would follow. Across the last 2 months we have witnessed just that with the collapse of Washington Mutual and Lehman Brothers, the buy out of Merrill Lynch by Bank of America, the bailout of American Insurance Group (AIG), the largest insurance company in the world, with a $130 billion loan from the US Federal Reserve, and of course the now infamous bailouts of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. And all this is not to mention the $700 billion federal bailout of the entire US banking system just passed by Congress and signed by President Bush. We are living through an unprecedented time economically; what could be called a “Perfect Financial Storm”. The “Storm” is having many effects at personal levels. Most of you who have 401Ks or who have invested in the stock market with hopes of retirement security have taken big hits. I checked one blue chip mutual fund this morning on the internet just to see the effect being caused by the on-going stock market crash and this particular fund had lost 1/3 of its value over the last several months. Reportedly, nationwide retirement accounts have taken a $2 trillion value loss over the last 8 months as a result of this crisis. Credit is tightening, and loans are tougher to get. Companies are being forced to lay off personnel. We are clearly in a recession and have been for some time. Only now it is a planet wide situation with banks in Europe and Asia now failing and needing bailout by their respective countries. Just yesterday Central Banks of the top 7 industrialized nations in the world took the unprecedented step of acting in concert and simultaneously dropping their interest rates ½ per cent in an effort to get credit flowing in the global economy. It is a step that may have ramifications far beyond economics, but first things first. The first few installments of this series covered causes of the debacle ranging from the establishment of the Federal Reserve to the issuing of sub-prime real estate loans by banks which are then sold to the secondary market, Fannie and Freddie and are then packaged as mortgage backed securities and sold to investors including Insurance companies (AIG), Pension Plans, other Central Banks, Investment Banks etc. The question that must now be asked is “Why?” Why would a bank issue a loan to a person who does not qualify for it? When you realize that, to a bank, loans are assets as long as they are paying and become liabilities when they do not, it simply doesn’t make sense to loan money to an unqualified borrower. So why do it? The answer to this, partially, is the “moral hazard” concept economists have been talking about in connection to this crisis. This simply has to do with the fact that as long as the banks can be bailed out by the governments (your tax dollars) where is the real penalty for making bad loans? The bankers never end up having to be responsible for them. (Of course no one is mentioning that that is a major reason for the Central Banking scheme in the first place.) But in this instance, moral hazard does not explain entirely what has been going on. There are other reasons. So…let’s crank up the Way Back Machine to take a look at them. BEWARE OF ANYONE PROPOSING A CHANGE IN ALREADY WORKABLE FINANCE SYSTEMS. / Be very careful it is not being done to bring about a personal rip-off. Duplicate and understand these data. As you walk your way through the morass of conflicting and enturbulating financial conundrums that are our economy they will serve you well. As an example, for our economy to be this much of a problem and for the problem to persist as it is there must be many lies connected with it. The Bubble Inflates… So…why would a bank make a mortgage loan to someone they know would be very likely to be unable to repay it? The Way Back Machine has deposited us in the year 1977. Jimmy Carter, a Democrat, is President and signs a bill into law called the Community Reinvestment Act. The purpose of the bill is to prevent banks and financial institutions from engaging in a practice known as “redlining.” “Redlining” is described as follows: Of course this practice smacks of racism at the worst and at best a bit of social injustice. But from a banker’s view there could be other reasons for not loaning to low income areas and people. The obvious one is that, being low income, they simply do not qualify for the loan. Banks, for all their frailties and warts, had developed some standard know-how on the subject of loans and these involved certain criteria such as identity and income verification, debt to income ratio, and, on mortgages, down payment amounts, appraisals and loan to value ratios. These practices all came under assault as a result of the CRA. Exactly how is described as follows: The problems of racism and social injustice certainly do not have their roots in bank’s lending practices and those problems certainly would not be vanished by forcing banks to lend to low income people. Regardless, only limited damage was done by this bill from 1977 to the mid 90s. And then things started to change. So what happened? We take the Way Back Machine forward in time. It is the year 1992; the waning days of the first George Bush (Republican) presidency. A bill called The Federal Housing Enterprises Financial Safety and Soundness Act of 1992 is passed and signed into law. This bill introduces the requirement that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac devote a portion of their business to the purchase of the sub-prime loans mandated by the Community Reinvestment Act. This meant that the secondary mortgage market was now accepting these sub-prime loans and thus opened the door much further to additional sub-prime loans being originated by banks and mortgage companies. Prior to this, the effect of the CRA was severely limited by limited access to Fannie and Freddie. The banks originating the loans had limited places to sell them to. We move forward to the Bill Clinton (Democrat) administration in 1995. It was in that year, as a result of Clinton’s request, that regulatory changes were made for CRA with the intention of strengthening its effectiveness and further reducing redlining. Once again an effort at solving a problem instead of vanishing it; once again a political system attempting to solve an economic problem. By 1997 Bear-Stearns and Co. (one of the first large investment banks to fail earlier this year) publicly launched the first mortgage backed securities based on these CRA enforced sub-prime loans. By 2000, Fannie and Freddie were deeply involved in the sub-prime game and Fannie announced that soon 50% of its business would be sub-prime. The artificially created housing bubble was about to really take off. By 2002, as a result of the above, the bubble was starting to move into full swing. It was in that year that a bill called the Sarbanes-Oxley Act was passed. This law was created in response to the Enron accounting scandal and had the intent of forcing corporations to be transparent in their book keeping by requiring them to gauge the value of their assets and securities according to the current market price of those securities rather than the price the security was purchased at or some other value. This accounting standard is known as mark-to-market accounting and was yet another example of “solving a problem.” In case Congress hadn’t noticed, it was already illegal for Enron or any other corporation to falsify their records in order to artificially maintain their stock value. More efficient law enforcement was possibly required; not another law stacked on the existing law. Intended or unintended, Sarbanes-Oxley and its mark-to-market accounting requirements would have vast negative consequences. As the new century moved forward the housing bubble, fueled by the factors above plus low interest rates maintained by the Federal Reserve, expanded and expanded. The sub-prime mortgage backed securities were sold by investment banks and Fannie and Freddie to investors, banks, insurance companies, pension funds, central banks and others all over the planet. Housing prices, spurred by this artificially created sub-prime mechanism, sky-rocketed all out of pace with the normal inflation rate. Even if a sub-prime borrower found he was unable to afford his mortgage, he could just sell the house; usually for many thousands more than the purchase price a few months or a year before. It seemed there was no way to lose. And then the bubble burst. The Bubble Bursts… The natural laws of economics eventually catch up to the lies of politicians and quick buck rip-off artists. As early as 2006 some economists were warning that the bubble would burst as it was obvious that the rise in real estate prices was not based on sound economic fundamentals but was being caused buy the factors above which encouraged huge speculation in the real estate market. An explanation of this from one economist, Dean Baker, written in March 2006, follows: “Nobody doubts that there has been a sharp increase in house prices, the question is why: Is it because of fundamentals or a speculative bubble? A quick examination of the fundamentals should remove any doubts on this issue. On the demand side, neither income nor population growth has been especially rapid. Real per capita income has grown at a respectable rate of 2 percent annually since 1997, but this is considerably slower than the 2.8 percent annual rate from 1953 to 1973, a period which saw no run-up in house prices. Furthermore, the median family income has actually been falling since 2000. Population trends also would not suggest a surge in demand for housing. The number of households grew by an average of 1.4 million a year from 1995 to 2004. This is far slower than the 2.8 million annual growth rate in the 1970s when the baby boomers were first forming their households. The age distribution is also not consistent with a surge in demand for housing. The rapidly rising house prices come at a time when the baby boomers are moving out of their years of peak housing demand.” From the data Mr. Baker presents it was clear in 2006 that the reason for the real estate boom had nothing to do with sound economics and was therefore doomed. Later in the same article he actually encouraged a pre-emptive bursting of the housing bubble to limit the damage he knew was coming by having the Federal Reserve start issuing data to consumers to explain the difference between a speculative housing bubble and a sound production boom based on real demand. This would have caused consumers to start to slack off on housing purchases and real estate values would have started to slide back toward their real levels. The bubble would have burst sooner. By 2007, as the adjustable interest rates on these sub-prime mortgages began to kick in towards the higher rates, 3 or 4 years in to the mortgage, the wave of defaults started, housing demand dried up and real estate values started to fall. The tsunami effect this started cascaded through the mortgage, secondary mortgage and investment community like a tidal wave. Investment banks like Bear, Stearns and Lehman Bros and banks like Indy Mac and Washington Mutual found themselves owning and responsible for mortgages and mortgage backed securities that were being heavily compromised by these defaults. As result of the mark to market accounting procedures forced in by the Sarbanes-Oxley Act these institutions were required to report their asset values reflecting the real time market value of the assets. As the investment market dried up for these mortgage backed securities this value rapidly descended toward zero. This forced the banks to have to raise additional capital to cover their losses and started to impair the bank’s ability to make loans. Other banks, which in normal business times easily make loans with one another, began to believe that other certain banks (those heavily exposed to the sub-prime market) possibly would not be able to repay a short term loan and so ceased loaning to them. The credit crunch was on. So now here we sit, in the midst of the greatest economic disaster since the Great Depression. Take another look at the LRH quotes above. The effort to solve the social injustice of perceived racism was done by enforcing a government mandated economic “solution.” More “solutions” are piled on top of this. Each “solution” becomes the next problem to solve. Sit back and confront the problem of racism. The lies do not point in the direction of economics although it can appear that way with such things as slavery entering the picture. The lies point to a problem with people and their personal and social aberrations. They actually point to what we handle with Dianetics and Scientology. The irony of our current situation as Scientologists is that we now find ourselves the effect of something that only we have the solution for. Therefore we must now turn our own confronting and truth revealing glare on ourselves. The fact is we are in this situation now because we have not moved fast enough as a group to implement our programs and handlings for the world. There are good people in the world. But the truth is many of these good people, with the help of a few suppressives to be sure, were the ones who implemented these “solutions.” And now many good people are being hurt and destroyed. It did not have to be this way. It need not continue this way. But it will and even worse unless we all find it within ourselves to pull together and get this job done. We have no choice. Thanks, ~kes |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changAmber said Nov 21, 2008, 11:25 PM: |
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Whew ~KES! I read every word of that… and now I read on… |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changSherrilene said Nov 21, 2008, 3:23 PM: |
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Hey, it's me! I made it! |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changDave said Nov 21, 2008, 4:00 PM: |
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Great context of reality Sherrilene,
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changFastDart said Nov 21, 2008, 4:59 PM: |
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A gallon of gas cost $1.629 here in Springfield, Missouri, that's 3.79 liters! |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang~KES said Nov 21, 2008, 5:30 PM: |
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Auto club chart gives some statistics daily.
A gallon of gas cost $2.258 here in Los Angeles |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang~KES said Nov 22, 2008, 1:34 AM: |
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…covering your measuring scale of liters in Australia. Crude oil is the main ingredient in gasoline and its traded on the same commodity exchanges as coffee, beans and sugar. We can learn about gasoline costs specifically on this youTube. I don't know the answer you are looking for in terms of how much it costs to refine oil. Search google? K
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changJackie said Nov 22, 2008, 12:17 PM: |
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$2.13/ gallon here in Central NY. Gosh, we havn't seen this in a while…might plan a road trip! |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changgina said Nov 22, 2008, 3:55 AM: |
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Amber, Keith, KES, Andrew and et al: |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang~KES said Nov 22, 2008, 5:18 AM: |
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Hi gina, Thanks for painting a brilliant observation and complete experience of economics. What you bring up here is exactly what Amber has brought up and is completely on the subject of economics with an accounting of how this has affected you and your family. I believe that 911 was the wake up call for all mankind. I read something funny in one of the political pods where it was described that the suppressive personality described “GOD” = Gold, Oil and Drugs. |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changgina said Nov 22, 2008, 5:34 AM: |
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Kathy, |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changMeenakshi said Nov 22, 2008, 5:58 AM: |
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So–how is today's economy affecting YOU? One, it helps us to become more knowledgeable about the economy. |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changMeenakshi said Nov 22, 2008, 6:01 AM: |
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Coming back to the topic of how the economy is affecting us personally, today. |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changgina said Nov 22, 2008, 7:27 AM: |
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Andrew and Lori, |
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Let's discuss the ECONOMY...Question?Keith said Nov 22, 2008, 10:27 AM: |
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What a grand conversation! |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY...Question?Meenakshi said Nov 22, 2008, 5:00 PM: |
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Keith, I've been thinking that within communities, there should be more of barter/exchange systems; e.g. school uniforms/woollens/shoes that kids have outgrown after barely wearing them; clothes that we never wore and now don't fit us, and so on. |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY...Question?1Vector3 said Nov 22, 2008, 6:27 PM: |
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There are places like Freecycle.com, which have quite local subgroups. |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY...Question?Sherrilene said Nov 22, 2008, 6:34 PM: |
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M, I have been endorsing this concept for some time now. |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY...Question?Keith said Nov 22, 2008, 6:43 PM: |
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Oops! Leave it to me to get this screwed up. I meant to say Plato's Closet, which is a franchise opportunity. They only accept high-end, nearly off-the-rack clothing. I've never visited one of their stores because they focus on younger people. My daughter absolutely LOVES her local store!!! These businesses should prosper. |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY...Question?Meenakshi said Nov 22, 2008, 6:58 PM: |
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Tut tut, Keith. ” Leave it to me to get this screwed up.”? Have to use that |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY...Question?Keith said Nov 22, 2008, 7:29 PM: |
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Have never used the |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY...Money1Vector3 said Nov 22, 2008, 7:11 PM: |
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Hope people are accessing this thread either through Notifications or Newest First display, otherwise Replies to Post like this get easily missed. |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changMeenakshi said Nov 22, 2008, 10:01 AM: |
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I'm not disputing the theory/certainty, Andrew. Just wanted everyone to discuss their own experiences. |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changLucid said Nov 22, 2008, 8:46 AM: |
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Hi everyone, thanks for creating this lively discussion. I just read over it once very briefly, but I'm gonna give it a proper read through just to not get anything twisted. In the meantime, I feel this video is appropriate and beneficial to this discussion: |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changJudi said Nov 22, 2008, 11:30 AM: |
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Hi everyone, good discussions. I want to throw my two cents in for what it's worth. Here's how I look at economies An economy, to my way of thinking, is nothing more than the way in which a society decides to share the land and its resources. It's the land that provides everything we need. By utilizing the land and its resources in a cooperative and sustainable manner, humans can not only survive but also thrive. Sadly, our economy is not designed to allow cooperative, sustainable use of the land and its resources. It doesn't provide every human being for generations the access to all they need from cradle to grave. In a natural economy, people work cooperatively to utilize the resources of the land and share the fruits of their labor. No one has to pay for anything, and their work, their labor, is all about producing the things they and their neighbors need instead of producing and marketing things that people don't need. In the current economy, which is entirely artificial, the land is not accessible to anyone unless they buy a piece of it from those who acquired it originally through deceit, and malice. Those who came from the continents across the “pond” came with their “ownership society” mentality and took the land from those who had lived on it for millennia. For the most part, the indigenous peoples of this continent had been living with a natural economy and self-governance, which served them well. The current economy can't survive without rampant, mindless consumption, cutthroat competition, and destructive practices. Here's why I think that's so:
There's a lot more to say about all this, but for me the question is not “how can we fix this economy?” but how can we disentangle ourselves from it and create something more natural and equitable? Amber, my daughter, and I have been talking about changing the way we live and experimenting to see what alternatives there are. I've always felt there was a way to band together with others to do this – sort of the “build it and they will come” mentality – but I also know that the system has a stranglehold on us that would be hard to break unless we all understand what that stranglehold entails. Plus I'm just a visionary - it will take a group of people who share the vision to make it real. A natural economy and society requires self-governance, and cooperative efforts to make it happen. My desire now is just to start opting out of this economy little by little as much as I can. I just hope that my children can be part of a larger shift in the future. It seems as if the perfect storm has arrived to make it possible - climate changes, economic ruptures, global communication, a spiritual awakening - all driving us back to local economies of equity and sustainability. So, there ya go. Another way of looking at things, sort of radical, I know, but certainly part of the discussion. |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changMeenakshi said Nov 22, 2008, 4:53 PM: |
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Judi,thank you for describing your vision, that you and our lovely Amber are trying to achieve. Just this is a huge leap forward; from feeling liberated from “the economy” which seems to have replaced “society” as that chimeric source of all ills –at least if the media is to be believed. |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changJudi said Nov 22, 2008, 8:14 PM: |
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Hey Meenakshi, |
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Do NOT create a self-fulfilling prophecy!Michael said Nov 22, 2008, 11:46 AM: |
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I'm so sick of reading the newspaper and seeing these headlines of “global recession possible” or “hard times all too evident.” This is absolutely stupid. It is such a sorry fact that if the media prints something enough times, say a thousand times a week, people buy in a believe it. They sit at home and accept it and talk about it and they have no idea what kind of economy we truly have, who is in charge of their money, and what they can do about it. |
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Re: Do NOT create a self-fulfilling prophecy!~KES said Nov 22, 2008, 11:58 AM: |
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Hi Michael, I agree with you 100 percent. I tried to say this but you say it so that everyone understands. It's a beautiful thing to not watch the news for a week or read the paper and what you describe does happen. Kudos for your writing. Kathy
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changJackie said Nov 22, 2008, 12:26 PM: |
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My husband and I are trying to live more simply. No cell phones, one car. I am hoping that once our debt is paid off we can start renting a place with a nice yard so I can garden for a good portion of our food. Gosh, I can't believe the prices in the stores, especially for veggies! |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changmita said Nov 22, 2008, 6:50 PM: |
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Hi Amber and Others |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang1Vector3 said Nov 22, 2008, 7:24 PM: |
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Hi mita, I was thinking of you as I posted and lo ! you posted simultaneously, to the minute !!! |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changJohn said Nov 22, 2008, 7:33 PM: |
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We have become consumerists more than merely consumers. We've relied on this religion of consumption. If a terrorist attacks, go shopping! Go to Disneyworld! That will solve all our problems. But we couldn't continue consuming the way we did, not if it would take the equivalent of five earths to sustain our way of life. It had to collapse. |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang~KES said Nov 22, 2008, 9:11 PM: |
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Judi ~ Thanks for taking time to post and give recognition. I agree with you that we can all learn and are lucky to have Meenakshi at the helm of this site. She is unconditionally loving to Gaia. I look forward to both her and Amber leading the way for this group. Congratulations on your published book at Amazon Between The Worlds by you…I know from filmmaking that you have been through tons of economic lessons. Very well done! Jackie ~ You give such a perfect example of being a mom. The original derivation of the word economy in the dictionary goes with household and you prove it is great to do that as it is more economical. One can always use resources to start a workshop or write a book to gain whatever money you will need for this for futures. I love your children's pod and support that. You are a breath of fresh air bringing terrific ideas to this community. My advice…enjoy every moment of running a household and enjoying one of the highest artforms on earth… being a mom and awesome wife. Mita ~ Thanks for your website. I hope you do create the time to read this thread that Amber has created. Its actually quite good and I know others have been creating time to contribute to this group. Feel free to read and compare ideas to your writings. We would enjoy that. OM ~ Gaia Networking's mod is such a pleasure to team with always very validating and bringing the balance and intellect we need on Gaia. Thanks for what you do. I learn a lot! John ~ Thanks for posting. Great read. Money is an idea backed by confidence and its fun to get all of the different takes on the subject and how budgeting goes with economics to make a better world. Basically, I wanted to take a minute and thank everyone for keeping this post going and continuing and we look forward to everyone's viewpoint and how the subject of economy affects us, as well as suggesting some solutions. ~kes |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changAmber said Nov 22, 2008, 11:58 PM: |
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Yay! Good to be back on this thread… |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changMeenakshi said Nov 23, 2008, 4:37 AM: |
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Replying to thread to keep things in order; Amber, welcome back on your thread; with all those new insights! You really bring that fresh perspective from the inside. If we can keep sharing what's happening in our corner of the world, we'll get quicker and better insights than that of analysts on TV or even on Wall Street. On what's really impacting our life, and together, much of the world. I know it doesn't seem intellectual, but it's more intelligent to learn from life than from the words of doubtful experts. |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changJackie said Nov 24, 2008, 8:18 AM: |
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Yes, less teenagers! Especially the tween crowd that is starting to over take the malls and store after store that cater just to that crowd. It seems we start kids out younger and younger, making them think they need to buy thing after thing to be in the cool crowd. This plays into John's comment about being “consumerists”. |
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Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changgina said Nov 23, 2008, 5:03 AM: |
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Amber, Micheal, and et al, | |||

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