Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changing?

“The world's economy is in a shambles… and here we are… a community who wants to change the world… and very seldom do we discuss the sad state of the world, and what we can do about it…

Hey… let's talk!!!!”  Quote ~ Dave myworldpeace from here.

I've been having the most interesting conversations with Keith Gentle Soul
about the economy and would love to hear some mostly positive but also some real thoughts about the pain we are going thru also.

Here are a few things I'm going to be researching here in my own part of the world to lessen my impact on the economy or it's impact on me;

1. We have a thriving community of people in my hometown who have been practicing something called Permaculture and living more simply but not going without our modern day comforts. My mother and I are going to get in touch with them and find out how we can either join an already thriving, established community or getting the information to start one ourselves!

2. I am going to look into going back to school to learn how to be an occupational therapist assistant for the elderly. Right now I'm in {{{ohhh scary}}} SALES, cosmetics no less, and feel I could contribute more to society if I were able to help people be more mobile, more independent. Ya Think?! <wink><wink>

3. I have 'gifted' so many of my personal possessions to my friends and sent even more to the Goodwill Industries AND more importantly, I'm not bringing new 'STUFF' into my life… Keith posed this question to me “If you were on an island what basic things would you need to survive?” Well, I'd need shelter, food, a fig leaf or two, potable water, and FRIENDS! Okay, I wouldn't need friends but I really wouldn't want to live life alone on that island! Want to join me?!
 
So I'm looking at my life and I'm very excited about actually being the change for a change! I'm not here simply talking about it! Stay tuned for 2009 and my blogs on moving for the 3rd time in 4 months, this time into a place that I will feel like I'm contributing to change! I'm hoping some of your suggestions here will give me more ideas that I can implement!

Smiles!
amber

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Here are a couple of articles Keith brought to my attention many of you may want to read up on… I found them to be very interesting as they are full of statistics and I'm a statistic junky! Did you know that in the 20's and 30's;

The average middle-class man in the late 1920s, according to the writer and cultural critic Virginia Postrel, could afford just six outfits, and his wife nine - by comparison, the average woman today has seven pairs of jeans alone?! Who knew?! From…

Depression 2009: What would it look like?

Breakdown of the Global Monetary System by summer 2009

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

So right you are! I find that this is the perfect opportunity for me as well as others to get back in touch with what they truly love. I had never invested much money in stocks, save for my 401(k), and most of my money is just saved up for times like these. I spend less, am more conscious of what I buy and what I do…and I had decided to start selling my handcrafted accessories and apparel and just have fun with my life. I walk to almost everywhere and I catch a train to work…so I save a ton on gas money. I'm fairing pretty well from living within my means. A lot of my neighbors aren't doing so well, mainly because they can't spend their money like they can't. But I ask them: is it so important to have so many things? Work on the basics and build from there…and most of the things we want comes to us with some creativity and some ingenuity. It's just a great time right now to take a pause in our life and instead of crying about what we don't have in our life…let's be grateful for the many things we do have in our lives.

The economy is down…let's put things in perspective. Last year, I was homeless with no job. This year, I  have a beautiful home and am fulfilling my dreams. So unlucky I am not!

Trance-n-dance,
M.L. Scion
Daughter of Zion

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

I think the term is minimalist living. It's something I've been aiming/trying to do for about 5 years, but keep accumulating junk. The trouble is it's useful junk, almost Murphy's Law junk in that often as soon as I give something away because I may not have used it for months, guess what I'll need the following day. I like the desert island analogy.  I'm not going to adopt it, but I like it. The main cause of the great depression was mob panic.  If everybody else would just agree on that point we shouldn't have a problem… Simple.

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

The Bretton Woods meeting took place just before the end of WWII … in New Hampshire.  I've been there and its a cool place.  The room where the meeting took place is set aside and is now akin to a museum.

The less-than-inspiring meeting of the G20 that took place in DC this past weekend was being called “Bretton Woods II”.  It was a dud.  Absolutely nothing was accomplished except for some nice words.  Trying to divine why this may be, a guess may be that everyone's waiting for the Obama administration to take office.  Just a guess.

How much damage can be done between now and January 20th?  It has become abundantly clear that no matter how many fires there are, Nero only plans to watch the flames from afar.  We are caught between a rock and a hard place at the moment.  The present administration has no credibility whatsoever.  Everyone's waiting for Obama.

Till then, we wait … and hope the fires don't get too close …

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Hey Keith and great discussion everyone!

While I can see your perspective that everyone is waiting for Obama, I respectfully see it differently, especially internationally.

Although you have not said it… your words express a concern and perception that the entire world is economically suffering to the same extent as the United States.

It's not… the US economy is suffering terribly, and to some extent, other nations have been impacted by the US recession.  But other than Japan, and a couple of other countries, the rest of the world is not suffering an economic crisis.

Here in Canada, the US is our largest trading partner, as Canada is the largest trading partner of the US as well.  Yes, we have seen a slow down in demand for our products in the US, but there is no slow down of Canadians buying US products in Canada.

Financially, our real estate market is still strong, and our big banks are as profitable as they have ever been.  In fact, this week, one of our big banks is announcing record profits.   Sure, things have slowed a bit, but we are not in a crisis by any means, our equivalent to Wall Street is not corrupt, and we want the US auto companies to get some help, because there are many GM, Ford and Chrysler plants here in Canada, and we want our people to keep their jobs too.  We also have Toyota and Honda plants, and they have made it clear that they are doing fine economically, and if Canada chooses to help bail out the US auto companies in Canada, the Japanese companies don't need any handouts, they are doing just fine.

Finally, in Canada, our government hasn't run a budget deficit in over 10 years, and sometimes our Treasury has to find ways to spend excess cash.

Canada is just an example… our story is similar around the world.

The G20 meeting was a dud, because at least 18 out of the G20 don't have an economic emergency, and quite honestly have some resentment that the Bush Administration is creating the perception that the problem is as severe globally, as it is in the US. 

Quite simply.. it is not.

You may be right, Americans are waiting for Obama… but I can assure you… the rest of the world is not waiting for Obama to help them.. although we are glad Bush is leaving and Obama is going to be your new President

Americans need a new US President to bring new hope for America.  The rest of the world wants Americans to have better than Bush, but we do not need Obama to make things better for us.

I apologize for being a bit blunt, but I really feel badly how much Americans are struggling right now, and for some reason have also been led to believe that if the US is suffering, so is everyone, and secondly, that Obama will solve the world's problems. 

The world will be a better place, when America takes care of its own problems… in the interests of Americans, and that America also acknowledges while it is the number 1 country in the world… the rest of the world is not sitting at the edge of its seat praying for America to get better and save us.

That being said… I do have another question for everyone…

“Are people doing themselves any favors hoping in a new President to make their lives better?  In doing so, are they avoiding taking a look at thier own lives and assessing what is important for each of us to take responsibility for without hope in anyone else?”

Take care,

Dave

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Dave, I'd be extremely careful how you describe the situation in Canada.  You may have several million show up on your doorstep.

What's for dinner?

I am, however, extremely pleased you guys are doing okay.  We're not, and appears those in Europe and several Asian economies are having difficulties as well.

Be mindful that your nation does not exist in a vacuum.  A severe turn for the worst of your neighbor to the south will eventually affect you.  It must, in time.

We are less than a year and a half into “The Unraveling”, which is what I'm terming this.  We have a long way to go yet.  For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.  The action has already begun.  It must run its course and we're not even half way there.  Actually, we've only just begun.

I have a friend here from China and we were talking not long ago about this very same thing, when I mentioned that China's economy is booming!  She shook her head.  Much of China's exports go to North America … and right now we're simply not buying.  They're already feeling the pinch.

To address your question, yes there are some who are looking toward Obama as something of a savior.  Some are calling him the Anti-Christ as well.

To me he represents a symbol, a person we can rally around. 

It's not so much we expect him to fill the shoes of a card-carrying savior … it's just that we cannot tolerate nor work with the present administration.  As I stated earlier, Rome is burning and Nero is playing his fiddle.  Is it asking too much to demand a government that's responsive to it's citizens and can act in our best interests?  We gave the $700 billion the administration asked for.  They've disbursed less than half … and are now getting into a pissing contest with Congress and the Democrats over a paltry $25 billion … that they, themselves, have and can give to our automakers right now. 

We can hardly wait till this long, difficult national nightmare is over.

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Agreed Keith,

No doubt everyone, including Canada is feeling the pinch, we are just not suffering in a full blown recession… and hopefully have the foresight to avoid it.

While we are not doing terribly in Canada, we are also aware of what could happen, and are taking action to prevent a major recession from hitting us in the future as best we can.

Just today, the Federal Government announced it is prepared to go into deficit spending in 2009 / 2010 if that is needed to stimulate the economy. 

All I was saying, was that the world is not waiting for Obama.. and the G20 dud was not due to lack of action, it is moreso that other countries are taking care of their own situation today, and in anticipation of the future.

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Don't worry, I bet you'll get into a groove.  I use to be (hehe, I'm recovering!) a big collector of everything.  One day I just purged and purged and out the door it all went!  I actually felt really good to get rid of it all.  Boxes that were in storage for over a year and I hadn't needed a single thing - to Good will they went.  Well, everything but my grandma's plates : )

I even went through all my clothes after my new babe was born, and anything that I didn't fit/knew I'd never fit again I got rid of.  It does no good in my closet!  I now have 3 pairs of pants and 5 or 6 six shirts, along with a couple more dressy outfits for church.  And thats it!

Any mom will tell you that is barely enough clothes to last a day, why with being spit on and spilled on, coughed and sneezed on…  I also only do laundry once a week. 

All you have to do is make the commitment to work with only the things you have and presto!

I agree with you about the main cause being panic.  Its almost like everyone just needs a time out.  So if we all go to our separate corners…

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Let's look at the root of the problem. What is the economy based on?   I have heard it said that money  it's base on everything from women to black gold ( oil )  but in the end it's in the eyes of the beholder. That's right it's perception that decides the dollar.  Consder alternatives to the current economy such as points from companys being exchanged for products from another company completely tax free because it isn't techinically money.  Wait you say — the irs would just draft a new law to include points.  Yes you are correct so the problem is really money it's really big brother.   We can't get ahead as long as big brother has his hands in our pockets.  But how do you change a system designed by lawyers? 

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Great conversation everyone!

Dave, I quoted you as saying,

“The world's economy is in a shambles… and here we are… a community who wants to change the world… and very seldom do we discuss the sad state of the world, and what we can do about it…

then you say in your response to Keith,

“Although you have not said it… your words express a concern and perception that the entire world is economically suffering to the same extent as the United States.

It's not… the US economy is suffering terribly, and to some extent, other nations have been impacted by the US recession.  But other than Japan, and a couple of other countries, the rest of the world is not suffering an economic crisis.”

Which scenerio is it? The world's economy is in a shambles or the rest of the world is not suffering an economic crisis?

~KES I read the article, Economics 1966, top to bottom and I was glad of the information! The Question, “HOW CAN I LIVE?”, is what I believe all of us are trying to answer and are very frustrated when we can't see thru the fog created to obscure the truth of the matter.

Instinctively, we are trying to wiggle, twist, turn, and stand on our collective heads in order to simply, LIVE. Andrew brings up Minimalist Living, I brought up Permaculture, and Nightphoenix brings us back to the article ~KES linked us to explaining that, even if we have the fortune to get ahead, we will still lose in the end to those pesky lawyers creating tax laws!

So my thoughts of moving in with others and 'bartering' our skills in exchange for the skills of others in our community runs into a brick wall. The home or property we would move to would be subject to taxes so some of us would have to work for currency to pay those taxes. Even if the land were owned by the community we wouldn't be able to get around the need for 'dollars'.

~KES, was there a follow up article on how to get around the 'economy'? Something besides a silent revolt by becoming less and less productive?

amber

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

I have to agree with Dave as far as Australia is concerned, our economy is ticking over okay. 

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

I found this at the end of the article:

THE QUESTION The relationship of any man to economics is a simple one:  “HOW CAN I LIVE?”

To that adheres the question, how can his dependents and his community live?

Whenever a person asks this question or any version thereof in this, the complex society of today, he is asking, “What is economics”

In this article, short as it is, all the vital factors of economics are listed.

What needs to be guaranteed is that one’s economic destiny is not managed by men who hate and who will not be comfortable until all other men are slaves.

The long-term solution to the question “How can I live?” is: Never work for a suppressive firm and do not support a suppressive government. And work to put us in a position to guarantee that leaders are sane.”

Chris has the best blogs to read for starters that bring about a clear understanding of the current scene.  Thanks to him for being such a prolific writer with great insight.

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

a silent revolt by becoming less and less productive

= exactly the story in

Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand. Addresses pretty much all the issues here, quite clearly illuminating the fundamentals of it all, and with great historical accuracy.

Blessings, OM Bastet

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Hello all - commenting to keep abreast of the dialog in my inbox.  Good to see the views and info flowing.

Sharing and acknowledging difficult situations is an old tried and true coping mechanism.

Who is John Galt?

Blessings, David

What's Ahead

If one reads or listens to learned people prognosticate where we're headed, one can quite easily walk away in a depressed state, for there is nothing but doom and gloom.  Yes, “Great Depression II” comes up a lot.

Yesterday following the close of the US markets I turned on the television for the first time and it just happened to be on CNN Headline News.  I was taken aback!!!  This is a “news” channel?  The participants were in a state of apoplectic convulsions, running around Henny-Penny style screaming the sky was falling. 

{{{SIGH!}}}

After this they interviewed Peter Schiff of Euro-Pacific Capital who has been forecasting these types of allegedly cataclysmic economic events for quite a while.  Afterward I went to YouTube and searched for him.  There's plenty there, BTW.  I then listened to what he had to say about all this.

Bottom line is … he is in complete agreement with all the comments here.  The US is losing dominance, China is rising, we are only in the beginning of this “mess”, potential for complete collapse, etc.  He has some unique takes on how and why we're here, which I won't go into here, so if you have a sec, look him up on YouTube.  He's very matter-of-fact, BTW, none of this “the sky is falling” bovine fecal matter.

How will all this play out in our immediate future?  What's next?  I'm going out on a limb here by posting my own feelings …

First, things that must happen … Many if not most of our “big-time” institutions will fall, such as GM, Ford, large retailers, most banks.  We are in a “deflation” phase now.  So now is the time to buy things, between now and around February or so, but should refrain from borrowing to do so.  “Big-ticket” items such as real estate and automobiles have not reached bottom yet.  We should be stocking up on pantry items and such, because the next phase is “hyper-inflation”. 

Please remember … our economic system is a very intricately balanced relationship and right now it is extremely unbalanced.  We're leaning precariously on one edge, attempting to maintain balance.  Once we work through the issues that got us here and can move toward the center … we will quickly move to the opposite extreme.  For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.  This must happen.

The alternative is total collapse … we fall off the edge economically.  This is a distinct possibility, but is not a given.  If this happens, all bets are off … we will have a clean slate on which to create anew and no one can predict where we may end up or what may happen.

There will be civil unrest, most specifically in the US.  This is also a given.  Our friends and neighbors in unprecedented numbers are losing jobs, falling behind in mortgage payments, and on and on and on.  There will be anger, frustration, lots and lots of unemployed people with time on their hands.  It doesn't take rocket science to see this coming.

Now … we can join those who are screaming “the sky is falling” … or we can step back and see this for what it is. 

In economics there is such a thing as ”The Law of Diminishing Returns”.  Our present structures and systems, I would posit, have passed this point.  We create (i.e., governments, businesses, organizations), they grow, they grow too large, then they begin to implode due to their sheer size and growing inefficiency.  Government bureaucracies must restructure.  Huge business entities that are still operating under paradigms long past their sell-by date must give way to new, streamlined businesses.  We are entering a phase of unprecedented restructuring and re-defining.

So now we can discuss what could come about … Instead of looking around and interpreting what we see as madness and mayhem, we could perceive this for what it is … perfectly normal and necessary … and a tremendous opportunity!!!

If necessity is the mother of all inventions, then we will all need to roll up our sleeves and start … inventing!!!  In the US we elected the “change” candidate.  I watched as his top advisers and Cabinet members were named and rumored, one by one.  Right now the MSM and some on the blogosphere are having a feeding frenzy because Obama has tapped many “old energy” people to be around him.

If one dispassionately steps back and views this from a broad perspective, there is much to suggest that, yes, “change” is on the agenda for the next US administration.  The first hint, to me, which screamed out, was his choice of Rahm Emanuel as Chief of Staff.  Here is a man who is renowned for getting the job done.  He has a tough, no holds barred, take no prisoners reputation (which is probably overstated a bit).  He helps bring balance to “No-drama Obama”.  This told me from the very beginning that Obama means what he says, he is the candidate of “change” and has every intention of following through.  He is tapping those who have expertise in specific areas, which is necessary to get the job done.  Looking at leaked hints of who he's gathering around himself and viewing all of them as members of an orchestra … this should raise some eyebrows and give us hope.  A good sign is all the bloviating from detractors and those who would benefit from maintaining the status quo.

We, collectively, want to move in a different trajectory.  Watch for technology to become more prominent and revolutionize entire industries.  We will have health care reform in the US.  We will have a new energy policy.  Some of our old energy activities will go the way of the horse and buggy.  Try as hard as they may to hold on (which is happening now) we must allow them to fall because they have outlived their usefulness.

You may think I'm being too vague here, which is true, because there are simply too many possibilities to choose from!!!  Wow! 

Those who have and hold power always want to maintain and gather to themselves more power.  They will resist change at any cost.  Ideas or actions that challenge this power will be perceived as threats.  Right now, this moment, there is a war going on.  Old ways of acting and thinking have lost their power.  The war is never over, however.  The final nail in the coffin for this battle here in the US was hammered in on November 4th.

Reading the tea leaves here … Once all the Herculean efforts used by the old paradigm to stop, block, or resist new ideas is removed … the flood gates open.  For those who thrive and blossom in an atmosphere of creativity and innovation, our time has come. 

This will not last, however.  We have a “window” of between one to two years.  It is up to us, collectively and individually, to bring about this transformation. 

What shall we create today, you and I?

Re: What's Ahead

There were some interesting things said on Coast to Coast AM on November 19th. that echo many of the points you bring here Keith.
I think you've zeroed in on the facts and I can hear the cards falling as I type.

What shall we create today, eh?

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

I wrote a post about the economy– http://discoverfarther-w-humanity.gaia.com/blog/2008/11/what_was_the_last_thing_you_wondered_about

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

 Gaia is a spiritual site filled with religions from around the world. 

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Whew ~KES! I read every word of that… and now I read on…

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Hey, it's me! I made it!

I was in London when things started to crash. It was pretty dismal; many people in a panic but many others just confused since they weren't 'players' in the big deals anyhow. Most people aren't! People started talking about saving their own money again and screw [pardon me… ] the banks. I was pleasantly surprised with the free spiritedness that was coming through.

In my case, coming from the developing world, we definitely are not players in the big game. We just generally look on and hope that things don't get so bad over there that you can't travel over for holidays! We need the foreign exchange; all of our debt are in your currency… Ours isn't considered valuable enough for trading…

But apart from that, as I said to my British friend while I was there, life goes on. Humans figure it out. There are people in Africa and elsewhere living off of $2 a day! These are people with families, where resilience is necessity.

I have been observing here that the small vendors are doing good business now; people are starting to negotiate and bargain etc. It isn't all bad from what I see. And it's getting the money baggers to clean their acts up. I'm completely, totally for that.

Finally, I don't consider the financial crisis to be a greater crisis than the droughts in other places. Every place gets its share of real s**tty stuff… and I think it's just to remind us that nature is the Boss, so keep it real.

That's my real quick thoughts on the matter.

Mankind will figure it out, and hopefully will do a much better job than before. See my blog for today in detail…

Love to all my friends! Sherrilene

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Great context of reality Sherrilene,

The big picture can be summed up with bookends..

Bookend 1) As you so clearly shared.. Africans living on $2 a day.

Bookend 2) The $700 B US Troubled Assets Recovery Plan (TARP) changed its mind, and the funds are now being distributed to the banks to invest as they see fit.  CitiGroup is using the money to acquire more companies, while this week announcing that they are laying off an additional 53,000 people.  Meanwhile, 66% of the shares of CitiGroup are owned by Wall Street Funds, and not the general public.  Secretary Paulson says… 'we know better, so leave us alone… trickle down economics works.”

There is WAAAAAAY too much gap between the bookends, and hopefully… the common human is going to stand up to Bookend 2 and say we are not going to take it anymore.

I am totally amazed at how we, the 'lower and middle classes”, just let things unfold… without makin our concerns be known.

I know this is not popular, but the west could use a whole lot more reality check… and unfortunately, a depressed economy may be the only way.

D

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

In Australia, or more correctly Melbourne, the price of fuel has dropped about 1/3, from about $1.70/ltr to less than $1.20/ltr over the last couple of weeks and is predicted to be about $1.00/ltr/gal by dec.

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

A gallon of gas cost $1.629 here in Springfield, Missouri, that's 3.79 liters!

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Thank you all for that feedback! Somewhere along the line I get the feeling Australians are getting ripped off, but then fuel companies are not known for their generosity. Thank you for that link Kathy, very enlightening indeed.

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

That works out to about 50c/ltr!!! Lars“`!If we were to believe the spiel the oil companies give us they can't refine it for that price!!!! Thanks Larry

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

$2.13/ gallon here in Central NY.  Gosh, we havn't seen this in a while…might plan a road trip!

; )

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Amber, Keith, KES, Andrew and et al:
Good morning
You folks have to bear with me as I am an almost 50 year old woman with just a high school education but a graduate of the school of hard nocks.
As I read this whole discussion, I am agreeing to some and in a quandry of others.
Yes, our country is in a bit of a mess, to put it mildly.  I am not sure who coined the phrase ”money is the root of all evil”, yet it speaks the truth.
Growing up in the sixties, seventies and eighties, I saw my parents rise from upper lower class to upper middle class and then most recently, to upper lower class people.  My folks were hard working (blue collared) individuals who respected the value of the dollar, yet the temptation of “having” the green did get the better of them twice.  My dad worked for one of the major companies in the United States, General Electric.  He worked on F111's mechanics.  Money was flowing into the family, and then, without warning, the Department of Defense pulled the contract and that led to a snowball effect of massive layoffs and loss of jobs; consequently within the last five years, General Electric has moved most of its United States workforce overseas.  The main plant located in upstate NY used to boast thousands of employees (the plant there was a little city inside of itself boasting its own fire department and police department and ambulance) to a mere five hundred employees.  With that happening, my father lost his job at GE (or was asked to take an early retirement) move the old to get with the new. One positive outlook on that is that General Electric continued my father's insurance up until six years ago, which covered his heart surgery and most medications.  That was a miracle in itself.
Back to the discussion.  I believe that the “fall” of our economy as it is today, began back then.  Coleco (toy company) that was housed in Amsterdam NY suddenly shut down, JM Fields began closing their doors to open up the fires to the AMES Department Store and so on and so forth.  Major retail stores such as Montgomery Wards, Howland's and now Macy's have closed their doors.  We see the Airline Industry suffering because of the cost of fuel.  Airline travel has been cut to a minimum…why?  No more direct flights, no more “meals” or even snacks on a four hour flight; too many long airport delays and naturally, though I am for it, the increased security and fear amongst travellers.  Many folks that I have spoken with said it started with 9-1-1, but it was happening well before that time which caused the crack to open up. Friends of my parents used to say, if we had a “war” then all the economy will improve.  Well, we had the VietNam War and the Gulf War in my “years” and now we have this 'war” which is approaching the time frame of the VietNam War, and it has become worse. 
I know to some of you, who are way more intelligent and versed in these matters, may say this is a simpleton speaking, but folks, take a look around and have a flashback…our country was suffering yet it was masked and covered up.
I am not sure if it was Keith or Andrew that had pointed out…”let the big guys fall” so that we can start over.  Well, my “hubby” said the exact same thing.  Once the big guys crash (yes there will be a loss of jobs and plenty of them unfortunately) but the opportunity will be there to go up because we will have reached the bottom. 
In another discussion in one of my groups here in Gaia, we got into a discussion of a mass amount of people who will be out of a job if the auto industry goes into the hole.  Once again, our government did not see this coming or if they did, covered their eyes, when the first gas crisis came about in 2005.  I was in the industry then.  Prior to that, my paychecks were in the four digits every week and by the time December of 2006 came around; in the last six weeks of my tenure in the industry, my paychecks were 52.00 a week.  Yes folks believe it.  I have to place the blame on that all around  Congress, the auto makers and the oil tycoons both abroad and stateside.  Could they not see that every auto manufacturer was making large SUV's and larger four door trucks with Hemi engines that were sitting on their dealer's lot for way over a year.?
Myself and my “hubby” do have big dreams but we also see reality.  We are lying low, watching and patiently waiting for the bottom to hit and then grasp the opportunity.  The area in which we live is a tourist area and the year we moved here, it was busy and prosperous, however, the reality was hidden….condos were going up, but no one was buying, smaller businesses were closing early during the season and hotels were at half occupancy from the year before.  This past season (spring break, fall break, vacations, motorcycle festivals, etc…were well below the expected turnouts).  A multi million dollar condominium complex situated on the Gulf, is now up for sale.  It has a total of five occupants.
All we are doing is sitting back, trying to save what little we can, and at this point contemplating taking out money out of our checking accounts and just paying cash for everything seeing that the economic crunch may jeopardize the credit unions as well.  A new year will be upon us and business will be anything but usual.
In a business, “it takes three years of hard work to even start to see a small profit”.  It may take three times that amount to even begin to see a change.”  Good or bad, one cannot guess.  Patience my dear friends is going to be a virtue.
Please let me know if I made any sense.  I do apologize for my lack of knowledge and education in this matter, but this is heart felt and street wise.
Blessings to all.

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Hi gina,  Thanks for painting a brilliant observation and complete experience of economics.  What you bring up here is exactly what Amber has brought up and is completely on the subject of economics with an accounting of how this has affected you and your family.  I believe that 911 was the wake up call for all mankind.  I read something funny in one of the political pods where it was described that the suppressive personality described “GOD” = Gold, Oil and Drugs.  
Also, I don’t see any lack of education in the area; as I am here to learn and share what I find right beside you.  Observation is the highest of any learning curve and you have personally experienced the environmental changes first hand.  Well done for seeing truth for what it was and is. I have seen our economy tumble during the Bush Administration.  Personally, I never believed a word that came from him.  He fits in the Oil category and all of what we are experiencing now until Obama takes office is still on his shoulders.

Your take on all of those places you describe in business spiraling downward and folding are perfect examples of what we the people have been confronting.  What you are observing, apparently, in our modern world, is an obscuring of actual economics to the ignoble end of taking everything away from everyone by the State. So their revolt takes the form of inaction and inefficiency.  

I have been running my own business the past 20 years and have experienced the exact Ups and Downs you describe. No matter which group I work with, I have found this to be true.  So on this wake up call since 911.  Please–we don’t need to invalidate ourselves – any of us.  Knock that off.  It doesn’t help economically.

What I want to change is getting all to see that things aren’t as dangerous as the news stresses, and I want to encourage others to continue with their own Spiritual & educational enhancement, as that alone spirals things up artistically and spiritually.  Yes we live on a crazy planet with a very small percentage that are working hard to make people feel fearful for their own monetary gains. Kathy

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Kathy,
Thank you for taking the time to read my babblings. :)  I too am a small businesswoman, however, I have not officially rolled the business out onto the red carpet.  I have been in the planning stages since 2002-03 with little help from any others except for Greg and my family.  It is a small business of crafts, floral products, christmas ornaments with a planning of expansion to diversify into the household and office cleaning.  It takes time and money which i have neither of at the present time.  LOL>
I was told that if I sought help from the SBA that they will give loans to women (because we are considered a minority) and regardless of past credit.  Hah!  What a bunch of BS.  I find it difficult to believe in the powers that be because with all their promises to help the “small and the weak”, they seem to add stipulations that one cannot achieve except the wealthy and even they are having hard times.  SBA was supposed to have lower interest rates (as advertised) however, they forget to mention, how low or should I say how hi…no wonder the small businesses struggle.
OK, enough said.
Many thanks Kathy

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Hi Gina,

You seem to have a pretty good grasp of the situation.

One thing you touched on, though, and I'm sorry but I'm going to disagree with you is in relation to 9-1-1.  Keeping in mind it is still way more dangerous driving to and from the airport than the plane trip.

I was absolutely stunned at the US populations apparent lack of intestinal fortitude over that infamous day.  The terrorists won a decisive victory, not over the attacks themselves, but in the aftermath.  EVERY person that has to fly anywhere in the free world is inconvenienced as a result of some astonishing lapses in US national security.

Why?

Because people didn't say “to hell with the terrorists, I'm going to fly anyway”, instead they stayed away in droves, giving in far too easily allowing the US Government to introduce draconian anti terrorist laws giving authorities the power to arrest and deprive of liberty, without charge.  Which had a carry on effect when the US said it wouldn't allow aircraft into its airspace that had come from an airport without the same anti terror measures.

What is going on here?

The cost to initiate the anti terror measures are astronomical.  On the Australian Customs website it advises “don't make jokes when passing through the screening process”??? Get arrested for being friendly???

The so called war on terror would now appear to have been a beat up by the Bush administration in some sort of preparation for disarming the US public of their democratic rights and freedom.  I am not pro-firearms (I've never owned one) but I understand why the pro-gun lobby is up in arms (forgive the pun) and I agree that US citizens should retain the right to bare arms.  Why would the government be worried about an armed uprising unless they had something VERY sinister in mind.

In Australia, as a result of the Port Arthur shooting the government passed legislation banning a number of privately owned firearms, giving owners time to hand in their now illegal weapons.

Guess what? Firearms that were supposed to be “destroyed”  by being crushed or dumped at sea, started turning up at armed holdups and in drug busts and so on.  The bumper sticker became a reality “if you outlaw guns then only the outlaws will have guns”.  The US public should be made very aware that anti terror laws are only as strong as the weakest link.

I sincerely hope that President Elect Obama has the guts to reopen the investigation into 9-1-1, there are far too many questions and woefully inadequate answers.

An eccentric Aussie (or village idiot)

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Just one addition to that post.

If we are waging a war on terrorism because of lives lost, why aren't we waging a war on traffic violations, that cost tens of thousands of lives each year.

Or am I missing something here?

An eccentric Aussie (and village idiot)

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

So–how is today's economy affecting YOU? One, it helps us to become more knowledgeable about the economy.
Two, it brings up ideas about where to affix blame.

Three, emotions come up whether or not we feel personally involved.

OK…what else?

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Coming back to the topic of how the economy is affecting us personally, today.

What I see is, strangely, a sense of calm till I see that it is actually numbness. The other day, I met people who'd been laid off. The ones who stay, have survivor's guilt; the ones who leave, cope by thinking of the first small thing that might be affected: the doctor's appointment, the movie they were going to see…

Different ways of coping.

Those who lay people off, felt the emotions, but not the right to show them as they were being “the bad guys” here.

To keep the company secure, as well as allow everyone their personal space.

When the economy goes south, as it is now , in the U.S. for sure; it is about the fears that come up, and the ones that are suppressed. Co-workers who are forced to part; who once worked on a team and now have to be reminded about not sharing confidential information with ex-staff.

It is not only money but also emotions, decisions and personal  changes that take place, whether or not each of us is at present hit on the pocket book.

On the other hand, I also see the clarity that begins to dawn….

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

I apologise Meenakshi.

I was of the understanding that the economic crisis in the US was the direct result of the astronomical cost to the US economy of the US governments “War” on terror.

I appear to be in the wrong again.

The village idiot

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

I waited long , and hard to come here.
The economy , and anything else that hits the news will give a ripple effect.
Ex. Health , you talk about sickness vs health what is the out come?
Now  the economy I want to say this I have been in all stages in life.
Where my economy has been good or not so good.
Yet , it all realy did not matter , as each day I got up , and and I was alive. I was well , I was healthy.
Each day I could have nothing , or just take it all from me those ECONOMY BUSTERS.
I would survive. My family would survive.
I could go some where , and live with nothing as all those people in Africa do. I would still have my heart , and my soul , and I would survive.
When I continued to talk of unhealthy thoughts or a poor Economy then BAM get it!
Well , I am not going to stay silent any longer , as we here on Gaia.
Have a voice , we want to change the world , and we aer making a difference.
If you resort to listening to what the stats say . Well I am say do something , and change them .
That is how I work.
If , I see something , then I think how can I do this differently.
Look at all the people commuting daily:
This is extreme :
people commute most often 90 min. daily.
Think the gas , the money saved , if people all stopped commuting daily.
I am not going to commute, I am going to work out of my home.
Then you save much money if you have children ,the chldren are happy , parents are aroeund more.
The car , and gas bills lower.
Then , the stress , of travelling on the roads to get to work ,and at work how stressed are you?
The medical bills go up , and then what?
I could go on , and on.
Only you can figure out what you can do to help .
Yet if we all put our heads together , wow, some big things could change!
LOve ,
Lori

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Andrew and Lori,
Both of you have hit the nail on the head.  There is so much centering around the after affect of 911 that he has become the “black hole”.  All of this was arising long before 911 started but I guess you could  say 9 1 1 was the straw that broke the camels back and then spiraling began.  No one wanted to take blame or better put responsibility.  But that is not the concern here.  For the moment, we have to concentrate on our economy and our future, not to mention our children's future and grandchildren's future.  When we pass from this earth, what will we have left here for them to survive.  Oh, by our good teachings they will learn to cope and survive, but for how long.  As Lori pointed out, she has taken the step to working from home.  I for one, am all for that.  That has been a dream of mine since I was eighteen.  For now, I will work to achieve that goal, little by little and day by day.  In the past year, Greg and I made a very large culminating decision and that was to pack up and move away.  We did that but with the blessings of our children and families.  In the part of NY where we lived, the economy was feeling the pressure,  too much to heat the house, too many taxes on too many little things, borrowing from peter to pay paul and so on.  We travelled anywhere from 8 to 40 miles to work, shop and the like one way each day.  Gas prices were on the increase and by the time you got to the gas station you were running on fumes.  Now, we are within 3 miles of our work, we work near each other, shopping is right across the street and recreational activities (who has time for it.  LOL) are within a few minutes or walking distance.  The only time that we travel longer is when the summer comes to go to the airport to pick up the kids; soon that will change when the airport is moved within 20 minutes from us.  We as a nation, must stop talking and complaining and start to do something or there will be nothing left of this great land except misery, disception and hatred.

love

Let's discuss the ECONOMY...Question?

What a grand conversation!

Gina, dear soul.  I want to gently scold you here.  Apology for who one is is not necessary.  The Light that is within you is exactly the same Light that is in each of the rest of us.  No apology necessary.

Let me send you pre-Birthday congrats!  ”Fifty is Nifty”, BTW!!!!!  Love my fifties.  Liked my forties.  Thirties sucked.  Twenties double-sucked.  Teens so low I can't use my chosen descriptive words in polite society.  Hmmm?  Life is getting better and better!!!!

Okay … broadly …

Yes, the economic disparity began … right around … give or take a few years … 1980 … Remember “Reaganomics”?

That was the last paradigm shift, away from the Progressive ideals of the New Deal.  See where that's gotten us, don't you? 

Real wages have fallen during this period, except for the top 1%-2%.  Prices have risen.  So after approximately 30 years of this … 'Tis time for the pendulum to swing back in the other direction.

Unions are once again coming back into vogue, although with large enterprises suffering, the benefits of collective bargaining may not be realized till some point in the future.  Small business enterprises should be favored as well.  Given our present level of technology and interconnectedness home-based businesses have been and should continue to grow.

I've been reading that the next “big thing” is everything “Green”.  I would agree with this up to a point.  We are in a contracting period now where we are all being called upon to prioritize out of necessity.  In the past we chose Organic Whole Wheat bread over regular white.  With ever-limiting financial resources, given the choice of going hungry or eating regular white bread … regular white wins. 

Aley and I went to one of our favorite grocery stores yesterday who specialize in organic and whole food products.  This particular store is usually like running an obstacle course, with wall-to-wall people and carts.  Not so yesterday, I noted.  It wasn't empty by a long shot.  But it certainly wasn't as full as it usually is.  One would expect this in a contracting economy. 

So “Green” or “Natural” may or may not be the place to be in our immediate future.  This could change, especially if the new US administration enacts legislation or implements a stimulus package moving the nation as a whole in that direction.

Second-hand and recycle enterprises should absolutely sky-rocket!!!  Question:  Suggestions for a home-based enterprise in the second-hand or recycle market anyone?  Talk about cashing in on the latest up-n-coming!!!  Could we all franchise something akin to a home-based Aristotle's Closet?

What shall we create today, you and I?
———
[mod note- main title added for continuity:'Let's discuss the ECONOMY…'- meenakshi 22 nov 2008]

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY...Question?

Keith, I've been thinking that within communities, there should be more of barter/exchange systems; e.g. school uniforms/woollens/shoes that kids have outgrown after barely wearing them; clothes that we never wore and now don't fit us, and so on.

This could be done through neighborhood block parties; or school webs, or something similar.

Question back: What is Aristotle's closet?

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY...Question?

There are places like Freecycle.com, which have quite local subgroups.

Blessings, OM Bastet

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY...Question?

M, I have been endorsing this concept for some time now.

And you know what? Some people actually buy into it pronto. It's not that difficult in societies where people interact more regularly, like small communities etc.

To make this a way of life will require some clear examples that it works. I told my students today, I've got to lead by example, cause that's how cultures change… Somebody's got to do it!

I am committing right now to identifying service providers that can work with me and offering my services to them and getting this show on the road!

Competition batters everyone; collaboration soothes. I'm [we all are!] due for soothing now…

Love, SC

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY...Question?

Oops!  Leave it to me to get this screwed up.  I meant to say Plato's Closet, which is a franchise opportunity.  They only accept high-end, nearly off-the-rack clothing.  I've never visited one of their stores because they focus on younger people.  My daughter absolutely LOVES her local store!!!  These businesses should prosper.

We may get to the point where money will not be available as a medium of exchange.  Barter is quite cumbersome.  If it ever gets to the point where there's no more currency, then creating a local medium of exchange will become necessary.

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY...Question?

Tut tut, Keith. ” Leave it to me to get this screwed up.”? Have to use that strikeout feature for this one!

Ah, Plato's closet; none near my  home; but these are all very important businesses.


You really feel it'll get to no money, Keith?

BTW, anyone hear about Amero replacing Dollar? I didn't really hear when someone was talking about it; but since we're talking, am throwing that in.

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY...Question?

Have never used the crossout thingy … till now.

Regarding money … I was referring to utilizing some unit as a medium of exchange.  I don't see this happening at any point in our lifetimes.

Now, if our entire financial system collapses … there may be a period of time where money will be useless.  I also don't see this happening, but this is a possibility.

Okay … the Amero … never heard of this till now.  This is on Wikipedia.  There's even a dedicated web site for the Amero.  Also here, here and here.

Perhaps it would be wise to ask any of our European friends what they think of the Euro … which is what this is.  This may become necessary, should the dollar collapse.

I understand that the transition to the Euro was somewhat traumatic, but I would appreciate hearing from someone who actually experienced this and are presently living with an integrated currency.

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY...Money

Hope people are accessing this thread either through Notifications or Newest First display, otherwise Replies to Post like this get easily missed.

Keith made an important point. The limitations of a barter system are severe, and easily apparent upon a little reflection. The number and kinds of transactions possible are quite limited. A medium of exchange (“money”) is a substance that most people are willing to “barter” for, because others will accept it in exchange. That is how money originated. That is its ultimate and only purpose, to facilitate exchanges, allowing an exponential expansion in the opportunities for exchange available to people.

Note that money is a societal function quite independent of government. The money supply need not be controlled by the government; in fact, such control has been co-opted by governments, and is detrimental to our economic well-being.

Money needs to have various characteristics in order to functional optimally in a society or group: Many or most of the people need to value it for itself. Thus gold and silver, thus cows or shells or whatever. It needs to be pretty portable/carryable. It needs to be ”divisible,” which means large and small amounts can exist. Herds of cows get cumbersome to carry around, LOL !!! There are other characteristics which describe what tends to emerge as optimal for “money” in various societies, but right now I can't recall them. Oh, durable/not easily perishable. Celery sticks even if everyone loved them, wouldn't do, haha.

You can see that our paper money fails in the intrinsic value department, now that it is not backed by gold. That's what governments have the power to do.  Our paper money is not true money, and that's one reason it's failing, one of many reasons the economy is failing. When people do not regard a money as “true money,” when they lose confidence in that medium of exchange, then there is chaos economically until a new medium of exchange is generally accepted.

I'm not saying this is the ONLY problem with our economy, far from it. But it is ONE, and I am suggesting that while more barter is a fabulous workaround in reasonably small groups or geographical areas, it just doesn't work for a national or global economy, one that requires transportation, contracts, lots of future planning, etc.

The spiritual purpose of money we reiterate in my Church services each Sunday. Every single word carries significant meaning:

The spiritual purpose of money is to be a substance used to facilitate an unlimited variety of exchanges and gifts of goods and services for embodied Beings who require certain THINGS for survival and flourishing.

On another aspect, it's quite arguable that all was fine in the New Deal era until Reagan came along and that he laid the foundation for our present woes. That is one viewpoint or opinion.

But I do not feel called to get into a big discussion here about economics. Meenakshi wants this thread to be about our personal experiences, so even my post is off topic, but I feel that some clarification and balance was desirable, some alternative views.

Blessings, OM Bastet

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

I'm not disputing the theory/certainty, Andrew. Just wanted everyone to discuss their own experiences.

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Hi everyone, thanks for creating this lively discussion. I just read over it once very briefly, but I'm gonna give it a proper read through just to not get anything twisted. In the meantime, I feel this video is appropriate and beneficial to this discussion:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5232639329002339531

Enjoy : )

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Hi everyone, good discussions.  I want to throw my two cents in for what it's worth.
 

Here's how I look at economies

An economy, to my way of thinking, is nothing more than the way in which a society decides to share the land and its resources.  It's the land that provides everything we need.  By utilizing the land and its resources in a cooperative and sustainable manner, humans can not only survive but also thrive.  Sadly, our economy is not designed to allow cooperative, sustainable use of the land and its resources.  It doesn't provide every human being for generations the access to all they need from cradle to grave.

In a natural economy, people work cooperatively to utilize the resources of the land and share the fruits of their labor.  No one has to pay for anything, and their work, their labor, is all about producing the things they and their neighbors need instead of producing and marketing things that people don't need. 

In the current economy, which is entirely artificial, the land is not accessible to anyone unless they buy a piece of it from those who acquired it originally through deceit, and malice.  Those who came from the continents across the “pond” came with their “ownership society” mentality and took the land from those who had lived on it for millennia.  For the most part, the indigenous peoples of this continent had been living with a natural economy and self-governance, which served them well.

The current economy can't survive without rampant, mindless consumption, cutthroat competition, and destructive practices.  Here's why I think that's so:

• When people have to pay someone for the land and/or the house they live in, they can't just utilize that land to support their lives, they have to create an income from that land, or get a job to have an income to pay for that land and/or home.
• Anyone who wants to have access to food, shelter, clothing (the basic three of survival) has to participate in this economy in some form or another, i.e., we have to have some means of making money (a livelihood of our own or building assets by getting others to do the work for us).  Having a livelihood means we have to have something to sell as well as a market to sell to.   
• We sell our time, skills, energy, ideas, services, and products either to an employer, or directly to our market.  As a social worker, I sell my skills, time, energy to an agency that gets its money from the federal and state governments.  My clients aren't really the clients of the agency, though we pretend they are; congress is our employer and our market) and they decide whether or not we deserve the funds (everyone's tax money) or not.  If they decide not, then I don't have access to the economy, i.e., the job that generates my income to pay for food, shelter, clothing and other simple amenities. 
• If you are self-employed, you have to drum up business or you can't participate in the economy either.  You won't have access to the dollars needed to pay for your food, shelter, clothing, and other simple amenities. 
• There can never be enough jobs that pay enough money for everyone to live comfortably from cradle to grave.  There will always be some who are denied access to the economy and therefore poverty can never be eradicated.  Poverty isn't about lack of resources, there are plenty of houses, food, clothing, etc.for everyone even in this economy; it's not a matter of scarcity but a lack of access that creates poverty. 
• There will always be greed and violence as people compete with one another for land, resources, and the jobs that make it possible to access them.  For example, how many of us have given up a job to someone else who applied along with us because we felt they could use it more than we could.  That's just a small example of how this economy breeds competition.

There's a lot more to say about all this, but for me the question is not “how can we fix this economy?” but how can we disentangle ourselves from it and create something more natural and equitable? 

Amber, my daughter, and I have been talking about changing the way we live and experimenting to see what alternatives there are.  I've always felt there was a way to band together with others to do this – sort of the “build it and they will come” mentality – but I also know that the system has a stranglehold on us that would be hard to break unless we all understand what that stranglehold entails.  Plus I'm just a visionary - it will take a group of people who share the vision to make it real.  A natural economy and society requires self-governance, and cooperative efforts to make it happen. 

My desire now is just to start opting out of this economy little by little as much as I can.  I just hope that my children can be part of a larger shift in the future.  It seems as if the perfect storm has arrived to make it possible - climate changes, economic ruptures, global communication, a spiritual awakening - all driving us back to local economies of equity and sustainability.

So, there ya go.  Another way of looking at things, sort of radical, I know, but certainly part of the discussion.

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Judi,thank you for describing your vision, that you and our lovely Amber are trying to achieve. Just this is a huge leap forward; from feeling liberated from “the economy” which seems to have replaced “society” as that chimeric source of all ills –at least if the media is to be believed.

This is exactly the kind of discussion we need to continue having: what is REALLY happening, in each of our lives; and how are we fitting it into our entire life; and balancing it with other aspects of our day to day life.

Look forward to reading more:)

[And did I say out loud–WELCOME to our pod, which is now yours as well!!!]

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Hey Meenakshi,
Thank you soooo much for your warm welcome here in the thread – and for the one on my grapevine!
I love reading your comments and have an incredibly high regard for your insights, and ability to bring out the best in people.  Amber's always spoken of you so highly and I know you've helped her through some really rough times.  So thank you, thank you.
I will bounce out to my message page and invite you as a friend so I can keep up with the things you're doing.  Well, hmmmmm, not keep up so much because frankly you are so busy here at Gaia that there's no WAY someone could keep up, but I guess keep in touch is a better way to phrase it :)

Do NOT create a self-fulfilling prophecy!

I'm so sick of reading the newspaper and seeing these headlines of “global recession possible” or “hard times all too evident.” This is absolutely stupid. It is such a sorry fact that if the media prints something enough times, say a thousand times a week, people buy in a believe it. They sit at home and accept it and talk about it and they have no idea what kind of economy we truly have, who is in charge of their money, and what they can do about it.

This is a time in our history where we as a brotherhood should be flourishing in all of our technology and wisdom and we watch the crappiest channels full of censored subliminal messages and buy into it.

I do not accept that point of view. I am much more optimistic. I believe that now is the time for the fittest to survive, for the smartest to go to the top, to take charge of their own lives and create the lives they dream of. So banks are controlled by the fed and you may not get a loan. There are ways to save money, start businesses, make profit and capital.
Think of them and do them!
Its time to take advantage of the freedoms we have left and make our own lives, not the lives the media, bankers, and leaders want us to have; subservient lives. I will not listen and create this self-fulfilling prophecy, it's rubbish and we don't need it. Get out there and work for yourself. Sell your talents. Live the life you want. Forget the mindless sheep.

If you are in a bad situation, change it. Everyday is a new opportunity. Quit your crying and make your own life.

Re: Do NOT create a self-fulfilling prophecy!

Hi Michael,

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

My husband and I are trying to live more simply.  No cell phones, one car.  I am hoping that once our debt is paid off we can start renting a place with a nice yard so I can garden for a good portion of our food.  Gosh, I can't believe the prices in the stores, especially for veggies!

We've taken a hit with the rising prices, but we are plugging along.  Right now we are kind of stuck…

I stay home with the kids.  If I went back to work without a degree I'm not going to be making much.  I will make enough basically to pay for the child care I would need, maybe bringing home an extra 30 or 40 dollars each week, which will probably mostly go into my gas tank.  So we keep talking about whether or not its really worth it? Not to mention my husbands hours change ALL THE TIME.

Amber, I am excited to hear about your journey learning about living in/creating a permaculture! 

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Hi Amber and Others

There is no way I can read all the posts and answer questions. I like to invite you to browse my blog on Deep conscious Capitalism
and read my paper (mostly written on fly online..so needs editing) to really get a handle on the problem. I desperately need a few reviews and comments.

Also please join my POD that has been silent to ask question. Once we understand the basic source of the problem then it is easier to develop a fair and sustainable solution from local level up to global. It all begins with perception of money and a series of misperception (wrong views that compounded the problem) because we forgotten how to share and reciprocate and create abundance and well being for all. I am under the weather a bit…so got to quit now.

Peace
mita

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Hi mita, I was thinking of you as I posted and lo ! you posted simultaneously, to the minute !!!

I have not compared your views to mine in specific detail (yet) but I encourage people to explore new viewpoints like yours and mine.

Blessings, OM

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

We have become consumerists more than merely consumers. We've relied on this religion of consumption. If a terrorist attacks, go shopping! Go to Disneyworld! That will solve all our problems. But we couldn't continue consuming the way we did, not if it would take the equivalent of five earths to sustain our way of life. It had to collapse.

Money is an illusion. Something only has value if we collectively agree that it does. It's one arbitrary system over another, whether we're trading beads and shells or euros and dollars. We create our own reality.

Now, times are tough where I'm at. But I still have a roof over my head, food in my belly, which is a lot more than a lot of people have. I can still take solace in a sunset, in the evening stars, in the sweet twirpings of the morning birds.

The paradigm is shifting. And I see that as a good thing. The question is, as the economic world collapses and trickles down on us (you too, Australia, you'll be feeling it soon), what kind of world can we create in its stead? If we can create a world of real economies and real communities–from the roots up, from the local to the global–won't we be better off? Why wait for Obama, we're doing it now, we're doing it here on this website, we do it anytime we breathe and enjoy nature and watch the sunset and realize that we are not the sum of our checkbooks (or the debts of them either).

I don't doubt that there's tough times ahead. I only hope that we can minimize the suffering and unrest. This is our moment, and I'm ready to roll up my sleeves and start getting things done.

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Judi ~ Thanks for taking time to post and give recognition.  I agree with you that we can all learn and are lucky to have Meenakshi at the helm of this site. She is unconditionally loving to Gaia.   I look forward to both her and Amber leading the way for this group.  Congratulations on your published book at Amazon  Between The Worlds by you…I know from filmmaking that you have been through tons of economic lessons.  Very well done!

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Yay! Good to be back on this thread…

I got off of work this evening from my retail, consumerism obsessed profession, took two hours worth of pay and exchanged it for a bucket of Kentucky Fried chicken with all the sides, burned up 1/6th of an hour's pay in gas going thru the drive up window and then home, fed three people on it and still had leftover's, pee'd in a 5 gallon bucket with a splash of Lysol to save flushes and the cost of water for the household, put a plug in the sink so water wouldn't run down the drain as I washed my face and brushed my teeth, and now I'm using 3 hours of pay to connect to the Internet this month and read the great things all of you have to say about our world! Aren't you all glad I'm being so intimate?! ~grin~ (the bucket has a lid and is very sanitary by the way!)

1. Where are you saving your money and cutting back or are you?

2. How are you consuming differently because of a feeling of pinch in the pocketbook or have you felt that pinch yet?


My favorite post coming on this evening was Michael's because I live with a roommate who constantly watches the news and reads the paper and gives me all sorts of gloom and doom about how nobody is shopping, profits are down 17% at our store, and 'the sky is falling, the sky is falling'… she then comes home from work (we're also co-workers) and complains about how swamped she was all day with customers at her counter! LOL Really? The store is full of people but they aren't buying anything? Hmmm…

Our profits are down for sure because our store is sending out 30% off everything in our store coupons and having Power Shopping Sales all day Friday and all day Saturday to coax people away from our competitors… it's not like the store isn't making money… it's just not making money hand over fist at the 200% mark up as is usual… Okay, I don't sell ski equipment or fine jewelry so the mark up might only be 75%, I'm possibly exaggerating but you get the idea!

Our store employees are all stressed out because our hours have been drastically cut and they are sure it's because nobody's buying anything and so we're all about to lose our jobs. They forget that we always have our hours cut before the holiday season because we hire on way to many employees the first of November to train them in anticipation of the crush of people after Thanksgiving. The company doesn't provide payroll hours for the increase in employees so everyone gets 15 hours a week until Black Friday. Then we're all up to our eyeballs in work! This happens every year but because the media is doing the gloom and doom chant, everyone thinks this is something new?! We are truly brainwashed by that idiot box! Thank you Michael for singing my tune…

I have faith in the American Public's addiction to consuming and see first hand, every day I go to work, that the 'economy as we know it' here in the U.S. is alive and moving along, albeit at a slower and more deliberate pace. We may chose to spend in different places such as Plato's Closet brought up by Keith, and the dollar menu's and movies, but we are spending… mostly on credit… because we are acting like we've just started a new diet. You know how starting a new diet goes… the minute you start it, you crave dough-nuts! You never craved dough-nuts before but now you do and you want a dozen of them, not just one!

So, the American Public has gone on a spending 'diet' because the media tells them they've gained a Recession. (don't look in the mirror… it isn't pretty!) They don't go into the stores during the week as much…but heaven help them when the weekend hits because by then, the urge to shop has gotten so out of hand that I could put bowling balls out on the aisle and people would buy them because they're on sale for only $17.99 with an original retail value of $45.00! I can see all of you lining up for a bowling ball because it's such a great deal! LOL I have them in 12 fabulous colors too! Oops… I sell makeup not bowling balls but you get the idea!

“If you are in a bad situation, change it.” Some people are truly in a bad situation and making a statement like the one Michael made is over simplifying IMO. The rest of us are only in a bad situation because we 'think' we are in a bad situation… anyone reading about my 5 gallon bucket with lid to save on the cost of water must think I'm in a 'bad situation' but my attitude is good and so is my situation! Would you really expire because you had to give up the $25 per month newspaper that feeds the doom and gloom, the $45 to $75 cable bill, the source of more doom and gloom, the $30 every two weeks to have your nails done, the $30 monthly latte habit, the eating out at maybe $100 per month depending on how often or where you dined?

(some of the above are still my personal spending choices I am committed to putting on credit because I can't really afford them but still think I'll expire if I don't have them, some I got rid of long ago and I surely didn't expire from the loss of the idiot box)

I'm giving my perspective on the health of the retail world in a semi discount department store. I'm not at a high end shop where traffic may or may not be at a stand still. I wanted to give you a feel for what is really happening in our shopping centers so the next time you hear the sky is falling, profits are down, and nobody is shopping you'll have some insight as to some of the reasons this may or may not be true.

I also want to add that our store is attached to a mall and the traffic in our mall is down drastically. Our particular mall has a store where you can buy real swords and armor if you happen to be a knight, a place where you can rent or own high end bridal apparel, many stores that cater to the 12 to 17 year old crowd who aren't employed yet so have sporadic cash flow, and other such places where you wondered, even in good economic times, how they stayed in business! People aren't flocking there now…

Our buffet style restaurant inside the mall has a line out the door and an established clientele, the movie theater is packing them in, and our indoor playground is bringing in young parents who are wanting to stay dry and get the kids out of the house during our cold and dreary Oregon winter weather. Those people walk by me everyday, (I stand on the aisle remember) thru our store, to get to those places… and I believe we're doing very well. Thought you might want to know!

Smiles!
amber

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Replying to thread to keep things in order; Amber, welcome back on your thread; with all those new insights! You really bring that fresh perspective from the inside. If we can keep sharing what's happening in our corner of the world, we'll get quicker and better insights than that of analysts on TV or even on Wall Street. On what's really impacting our life, and together, much of the world. I know it doesn't seem intellectual, but it's more intelligent to learn from life than from the words of doubtful experts.

Even big and medium sized businesses may get freed up if they don't have to keep playing to the analysts. Well, there is much more my husband's been telling me for years, so I won't try to explain what I don't personally know [!] .

John, your lines :”We have become consumerists more than merely consumers. We've relied on this religion of consumption.” Exactly!

But there's an emotional component there,too. Once in a while, when I am out shopping, I feel the contentment among the shoppers. It's like deep collective sighs–like eating chocolate is supposed to provide.  “Retail therapy” is not just a hype. It used to be window shopping.

On another note, once in a grocery store, I began to feel panicky feelings around me; soon realized that a hurricane warning had been declared, and people had switched to buying water and canned goods! Out this weekend, I certainly didn't feel anything this close to panic.

The one thing that I wouldn't mind seeing less off, is teens feeling that the way to enjoy life is to hang out in a mall. It's catching them too early. I'm conflicted about that, and wonder what others feel? Or if this is appropriate for this thread, Amber?

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Yes, less teenagers!  Especially the tween crowd that is starting to over take the malls and store after store that cater just to that crowd.  It seems we start kids out younger and younger, making them think they need to buy thing after thing to be in the cool crowd.  This plays into John's comment about being “consumerists”. 

The people who own Old Navy have this all figured out, because they also own Gap and Banana Republic(or at least they did, I believe they still do).  A store for each stage of life, really!  Old navy takes care of the teens with little money, Gap is for the working teen/young person and slightly more pricey and then Banana Republic where its a hundred for a tank top…

The younger they can get them hooked the better.  The dedication to being a consumerist is there, so they can build and build on what these people become willing to spend.

Meenakshi,  I love this, “But there's an emotional component there,too. Once in a while, when I am out shopping, I feel the contentment among the shoppers. It's like deep collective sighs-like eating chocolate is supposed to provide.  “Retail therapy” is not just a hype. It used to be window shopping. ”

That is all too true.  Its not good enough to look any more, one must have.

Maybe we could turn the tide on all the doom and gloom the media spouts off and take it as a good thing.  For once the junk they are letting off is actually helping people to “tighten their belts”.  Being a consumerist is a learned and practiced behavior, but so is being a minimalist.  The media is helping us relearn the minimalist behavior.  Making it more “mainstream”.  Too bad they had to go to such lengths to do so!

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Amber, Micheal, and et al,
This is such a fantastic discussion with so many views and opinions.
Amber, I applaud your 5 gallon bucket.  As you pointed out, it is true that during the Holiday season everyone cuts back to add other employees to their rosters to help with the ultimate Customer Service.  It's the old addage, if you let a customer wait too long, then he/she/them will not visit your store again.   I work for a large grocery chain store here in the southeast and they too have added more stores and employees faster than the economy will allow.  We are all on profit sharing plan (of course for those that qualify with the number of hours per say) and in the few short months that I have been in the profit sharing, my share has gone down.  I view it as opening up way too many too soon and a rush to acquire more profits.  What happens in these situations (I was a part of a similar scheme about 15 years ago) is that the public is overwhelmed with ads about a new store and how prices and customer service is beyond belief.  Again, because of a mass opening (we have four stores opening the same day in various locations), they are anticipating a large response when in reality (as it was in my store when it opened), the numbers were lower than anticipated, complaints were rampant because no one knew what to do and there were too many associates running around like chickens with their head cut off and the customer service shops that we all get came back with less than perfect scores.  A week after opening, all extra help goes back to their own stores and the new associates are left to ponder if they made a correct decision.  In a few short weeks after our store opened., we lost five employees, because their hours were cut.  Yes, because our department had a payroll to meet and absolutely no overtime was allowed after the first week. 
I realize that this is off on a tangent, but it culminates that we as individuals make the choices to where we want to work and once hired, hope to be there through all the difficult moments.  Some and most of them are the younger generation, believe everything should be handed to them on a silver spoon.  Lack of work ethic.
Take all of this and combine them with the views of all that are here and try to explain this to the employees that with the trouble in the economy, one has to sit on the outside, take it with a grain of salt because it will get better.  Believe it or not it does get better.
Our economy right now is in the downward spiral and once it hits the altitude where the spiraling will stop, there is no other place for it but to go up and that is where we come in.  How to do it?  We all just have to put our heads together and come up with a plan that is better than the economic professors can come up with.  Cease the opportunity, work it and there will be success.

Sorry that this got off on a tangent, tired, have to be work in a bit, but with Micheal's, Amber's OM's, et al's plans we can work to form a better economy.  We just need to take a stand.