Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, changing?

“The world's economy is in a shambles… and here we are… a community who wants to change the world… and very seldom do we discuss the sad state of the world, and what we can do about it…

Hey… let's talk!!!!”  Quote ~ Dave myworldpeace.

I've been having the most interesting conversations with Keith Gentle Soul
about the economy and would love to hear some mostly positive but also some real thoughts about the pain we are going thru also.

Here are a few things I'm going to be researching here in my own part of the world to lessen my impact on the economy or it's impact on me;

1. We have a thriving community of people in my hometown who have been practicing something called Permaculture and living more simply but not going without our modern day comforts. My mother and I are going to get in touch with them and find out how we can either join an already thriving, established community or getting the information to start one ourselves!

2. I am going to look into going back to school to learn how to be an occupational therapist assistant for the elderly. Right now I'm in {{{ohhh scary}}} SALES, cosmetics no less, and feel I could contribute more to society if I were able to help people be more mobile, more independent. Ya Think?! <wink><wink>

3. I have 'gifted' so many of my personal possessions to my friends and sent even more to the Goodwill Industries AND more importantly, I'm not bringing new 'STUFF' into my life… Keith posed this question to me “If you were on an island what basic things would you need to survive?” Well, I'd need shelter, food, a fig leaf or two, potable water, and FRIENDS! Okay, I wouldn't need friends but I really wouldn't want to live life alone on that island! Want to join me?!

So I'm looking at my life and I'm very excited about actually being the change for a change! I'm not here simply talking about it! Stay tuned for 2009 and my blogs on moving for the 3rd time in 4 months, this time into a place that I will feel like I'm contributing to change! I'm hoping some of your suggestions here will give me more ideas that I can implement!

Smiles!
amber

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Here are a couple of articles Keith brought to my attention many of you may want to read up on… I found them to be very interesting as they are full of statistics and I'm a statistic junky! Did you know that in the 20's and 30's;

The average middle-class man in the late 1920s, according to the writer and cultural critic Virginia Postrel, could afford just six outfits, and his wife nine - by comparison, the average woman today has seven pairs of jeans alone?! Who knew?! From…

Depression 2009: What would it look like?

Breakdown of the Global Monetary System by summer 2009

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

So right you are! I find that this is the perfect opportunity for me as well as others to get back in touch with what they truly love. I had never invested much money in stocks, save for my 401(k), and most of my money is just saved up for times like these. I spend less, am more conscious of what I buy and what I do…and I had decided to start selling my handcrafted accessories and apparel and just have fun with my life. I walk to almost everywhere and I catch a train to work…so I save a ton on gas money. I'm fairing pretty well from living within my means. A lot of my neighbors aren't doing so well, mainly because they can't spend their money like they can't. But I ask them: is it so important to have so many things? Work on the basics and build from there…and most of the things we want comes to us with some creativity and some ingenuity. It's just a great time right now to take a pause in our life and instead of crying about what we don't have in our life…let's be grateful for the many things we do have in our lives.

The economy is down…let's put things in perspective. Last year, I was homeless with no job. This year, I  have a beautiful home and am fulfilling my dreams. So unlucky I am not!

Trance-n-dance,
M.L. Scion
Daughter of Zion

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Great conversation!

I quoted dave.delaplante@thegreatwoodgroup.com as saying,

“The world's economy is in a shambles… and here we are… a community who wants to change the world… and very seldom do we discuss the sad state of the world, and what we can do about it…

then you say in your response to Keith,

“Although you have not said it… your words express a concern and perception that the entire world is economically suffering to the same extent as the United States.

It's not… the US economy is suffering terribly, and to some extent, other nations have been impacted by the US recession.  But other than Japan, and a couple of other countries, the rest of the world is not suffering an economic crisis.”

Which scenerio is it? The world's economy is in a shambles or the rest of the world is not suffering an economic crisis?

~KES I read the article, Economics 1966, top to bottom and I was glad of the information! The Question, “HOW CAN I LIVE?”, is what I believe all of us are trying to answer and are very frustrated when we can't see thru the fog created to obscure the truth of the matter.

Instinctively, we are trying to wiggle, twist, turn, and stand on our collective heads in order to simply, LIVE.

So my thoughts of moving in with others and 'bartering' our skills in exchange for the skills of others in our community runs into a brick wall. The home or property we would move to would be subject to taxes so some of us would have to work for currency to pay those taxes. Even if the land were owned by the community we wouldn't be able to get around the need for 'dollars'.

~KES, was there a follow up article on how to get around the 'economy'? Something besides a silent revolt by becoming less and less productive?

amber

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

I found this at the end of the article:

THE QUESTION The relationship of any man to economics is a simple one:  “HOW CAN I LIVE?”

To that adheres the question, how can his dependents and his community live?

Whenever a person asks this question or any version thereof in this, the complex society of today, he is asking, “What is economics”

In this article, short as it is, all the vital factors of economics are listed.

What needs to be guaranteed is that one’s economic destiny is not managed by men who hate and who will not be comfortable until all other men are slaves.

The long-term solution to the question “How can I live?” is: Never work for a suppressive firm and do not support a suppressive government. And work to put us in a position to guarantee that leaders are sane.”

Chris has the best blogs to read for starters that bring about a clear understanding of the current scene.  Thanks to him for being such a prolific writer with great insight.

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

a silent revolt by becoming less and less productive

= exactly the story in

Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand. Addresses pretty much all the issues here, quite clearly illuminating the fundamentals of it all, and with great historical accuracy.

Blessings, OM Bastet

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Hello all - commenting to keep abreast of the dialog in my inbox.  Good to see the views and info flowing.

Sharing and acknowledging difficult situations is an old tried and true coping mechanism.

Who is John Galt?

Blessings, David

What's Ahead

If one reads or listens to learned people prognosticate where we're headed, one can quite easily walk away in a depressed state, for there is nothing but doom and gloom.  Yes, “Great Depression II” comes up a lot.

Yesterday following the close of the US markets I turned on the television for the first time and it just happened to be on CNN Headline News.  I was taken aback!!!  This is a “news” channel?  The participants were in a state of apoplectic convulsions, running around Henny-Penny style screaming the sky was falling. 

{{{SIGH!}}}

After this they interviewed Peter Schiff of Euro-Pacific Capital who has been forecasting these types of allegedly cataclysmic economic events for quite a while.  Afterward I went to YouTube and searched for him.  There's plenty there, BTW.  I then listened to what he had to say about all this.

Bottom line is … he is in complete agreement with all the comments here.  The US is losing dominance, China is rising, we are only in the beginning of this “mess”, potential for complete collapse, etc.  He has some unique takes on how and why we're here, which I won't go into here, so if you have a sec, look him up on YouTube.  He's very matter-of-fact, BTW, none of this “the sky is falling” bovine fecal matter.

How will all this play out in our immediate future?  What's next?  I'm going out on a limb here by posting my own feelings …

First, things that must happen … Many if not most of our “big-time” institutions will fall, such as GM, Ford, large retailers, most banks.  We are in a “deflation” phase now.  So now is the time to buy things, between now and around February or so, but should refrain from borrowing to do so.  “Big-ticket” items such as real estate and automobiles have not reached bottom yet.  We should be stocking up on pantry items and such, because the next phase is “hyper-inflation”. 

Please remember … our economic system is a very intricately balanced relationship and right now it is extremely unbalanced.  We're leaning precariously on one edge, attempting to maintain balance.  Once we work through the issues that got us here and can move toward the center … we will quickly move to the opposite extreme.  For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.  This must happen.

The alternative is total collapse … we fall off the edge economically.  This is a distinct possibility, but is not a given.  If this happens, all bets are off … we will have a clean slate on which to create anew and no one can predict where we may end up or what may happen.

There will be civil unrest, most specifically in the US.  This is also a given.  Our friends and neighbors in unprecedented numbers are losing jobs, falling behind in mortgage payments, and on and on and on.  There will be anger, frustration, lots and lots of unemployed people with time on their hands.  It doesn't take rocket science to see this coming.

Now … we can join those who are screaming “the sky is falling” … or we can step back and see this for what it is. 

In economics there is such a thing as ”The Law of Diminishing Returns”.  Our present structures and systems, I would posit, have passed this point.  We create (i.e., governments, businesses, organizations), they grow, they grow too large, then they begin to implode due to their sheer size and growing inefficiency.  Government bureaucracies must restructure.  Huge business entities that are still operating under paradigms long past their sell-by date must give way to new, streamlined businesses.  We are entering a phase of unprecedented restructuring and re-defining.

So now we can discuss what could come about … Instead of looking around and interpreting what we see as madness and mayhem, we could perceive this for what it is … perfectly normal and necessary … and a tremendous opportunity!!!

If necessity is the mother of all inventions, then we will all need to roll up our sleeves and start … inventing!!!  In the US we elected the “change” candidate.  I watched as his top advisers and Cabinet members were named and rumored, one by one.  Right now the MSM and some on the blogosphere are having a feeding frenzy because Obama has tapped many “old energy” people to be around him.

If one dispassionately steps back and views this from a broad perspective, there is much to suggest that, yes, “change” is on the agenda for the next US administration.  The first hint, to me, which screamed out, was his choice of Rahm Emanuel as Chief of Staff.  Here is a man who is renowned for getting the job done.  He has a tough, no holds barred, take no prisoners reputation (which is probably overstated a bit).  He helps bring balance to “No-drama Obama”.  This told me from the very beginning that Obama means what he says, he is the candidate of “change” and has every intention of following through.  He is tapping those who have expertise in specific areas, which is necessary to get the job done.  Looking at leaked hints of who he's gathering around himself and viewing all of them as members of an orchestra … this should raise some eyebrows and give us hope.  A good sign is all the bloviating from detractors and those who would benefit from maintaining the status quo.

We, collectively, want to move in a different trajectory.  Watch for technology to become more prominent and revolutionize entire industries.  We will have health care reform in the US.  We will have a new energy policy.  Some of our old energy activities will go the way of the horse and buggy.  Try as hard as they may to hold on (which is happening now) we must allow them to fall because they have outlived their usefulness.

You may think I'm being too vague here, which is true, because there are simply too many possibilities to choose from!!!  Wow! 

Those who have and hold power always want to maintain and gather to themselves more power.  They will resist change at any cost.  Ideas or actions that challenge this power will be perceived as threats.  Right now, this moment, there is a war going on.  Old ways of acting and thinking have lost their power.  The war is never over, however.  The final nail in the coffin for this battle here in the US was hammered in on November 4th.

Reading the tea leaves here … Once all the Herculean efforts used by the old paradigm to stop, block, or resist new ideas is removed … the flood gates open.  For those who thrive and blossom in an atmosphere of creativity and innovation, our time has come. 

This will not last, however.  We have a “window” of between one to two years.  It is up to us, collectively and individually, to bring about this transformation. 

What shall we create today, you and I?

Re: What's Ahead

There were some interesting things said on Coast to Coast AM on November 19th. that echo many of the points you bring here Keith.
I think you've zeroed in on the facts and I can hear the cards falling as I type.

What shall we create today, eh?

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

I wrote a post about the economy– http://discoverfarther-w-humanity.gaia.com/blog/2008/11/what_was_the_last_thing_you_wondered_about

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

 Gaia is a spiritual site filled with religions from around the world. 

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Whew ~KES! I read every word of that… and now I read on…

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Hey, it's me! I made it!

I was in London when things started to crash. It was pretty dismal; many people in a panic but many others just confused since they weren't 'players' in the big deals anyhow. Most people aren't! People started talking about saving their own money again and screw [pardon me… ] the banks. I was pleasantly surprised with the free spiritedness that was coming through.

In my case, coming from the developing world, we definitely are not players in the big game. We just generally look on and hope that things don't get so bad over there that you can't travel over for holidays! We need the foreign exchange; all of our debt are in your currency… Ours isn't considered valuable enough for trading…

But apart from that, as I said to my British friend while I was there, life goes on. Humans figure it out. There are people in Africa and elsewhere living off of $2 a day! These are people with families, where resilience is necessity.

I have been observing here that the small vendors are doing good business now; people are starting to negotiate and bargain etc. It isn't all bad from what I see. And it's getting the money baggers to clean their acts up. I'm completely, totally for that.

Finally, I don't consider the financial crisis to be a greater crisis than the droughts in other places. Every place gets its share of real s**tty stuff… and I think it's just to remind us that nature is the Boss, so keep it real.

That's my real quick thoughts on the matter.

Mankind will figure it out, and hopefully will do a much better job than before. See my blog for today in detail…

Love to all my friends! Sherrilene

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Great context of reality Sherrilene,

The big picture can be summed up with bookends..

Bookend 1) As you so clearly shared.. Africans living on $2 a day.

Bookend 2) The $700 B US Troubled Assets Recovery Plan (TARP) changed its mind, and the funds are now being distributed to the banks to invest as they see fit.  CitiGroup is using the money to acquire more companies, while this week announcing that they are laying off an additional 53,000 people.  Meanwhile, 66% of the shares of CitiGroup are owned by Wall Street Funds, and not the general public.  Secretary Paulson says… 'we know better, so leave us alone… trickle down economics works.”

There is WAAAAAAY too much gap between the bookends, and hopefully… the common human is going to stand up to Bookend 2 and say we are not going to take it anymore.

I am totally amazed at how we, the 'lower and middle classes”, just let things unfold… without makin our concerns be known.

I know this is not popular, but the west could use a whole lot more reality check… and unfortunately, a depressed economy may be the only way.

D

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

You folks have to bear with me a graduate of the school of hard knocks. As I read this whole discussion, I am agreeing to some and in a quandry of others. Yes, our country is in a bit of a mess, to put it mildly.  I am not sure who coined the phrase “the love of money is the root of all evil” yet it speaks the truth.

Growing up in the sixties, seventies and eighties, I saw my parents rise from upper lower class to upper middle class and then most recently, to upper lower class people.  My folks were hard working (blue collared) individuals who respected the value of the dollar, yet the temptation of “having” the green did get the better of them twice.  My dad worked for one of the major companies in the United States, General Electric.  He worked on F111's mechanics.  

Money was flowing into the family, and then, without warning, the Department of Defense pulled the contract and that led to a snowball effect of massive layoffs and loss of jobs; consequently within the last five years, General Electric has moved most of its United States workforce overseas.  The main plant located in upstate NY used to boast thousands of employees (the plant there was a little city inside of itself boasting its own fire department and police department and ambulance) to a mere five hundred employees.  With that happening, my father lost his job at GE (or was asked to take an early retirement) move the old to get with the new. One positive outlook on that is that General Electric continued my father's insurance up until six years ago, which covered his heart surgery and most medications.  That was a miracle in itself.

Back to the discussion.  I believe that the “fall” of our economy as it is today, began back then.  Coleco (toy company) that was housed in Amsterdam NY suddenly shut down, JM Fields began closing their doors to open up the fires to the AMES Department Store and so on and so forth.  Major retail stores such as Montgomery Wards, Howland's and now Macy's have closed their doors.  We see the Airline Industry suffering because of the cost of fuel.  Airline travel has been cut to a minimum…why?  No more direct flights, no more “meals” or even snacks on a four hour flight; too many long airport delays and naturally, though I am for it, the increased security and fear amongst travellers.  Many folks that I have spoken with said it started with 9-1-1, but it was happening well before that time which caused the crack to open up. Friends of my parents used to say, if we had a “war” then all the economy will improve.  Well, we had the VietNam War and the Gulf War in my “years” and now we have this 'war” which is approaching the time frame of the VietNam War, and it has become worse. 

I know to some of you, who are way more intelligent and versed in these matters, may say this is a simpleton speaking, but folks, take a look around and have a flashback…our country was suffering yet it was masked and covered up.
I am not sure if it was Keith or Andrew that had pointed out…”let the big guys fall” so that we can start over.  Well, my “hubby” said the exact same thing.  Once the big guys crash (yes there will be a loss of jobs and plenty of them unfortunately) but the opportunity will be there to go up because we will have reached the bottom. 

In another discussion in one of my groups here in Gaia, we got into a discussion of a mass amount of people who will be out of a job if the auto industry goes into the hole.  Once again, our government did not see this coming or if they did, covered their eyes, when the first gas crisis came about in 2005.  I was in the industry then.  Prior to that, my paychecks were in the four digits every week and by the time December of 2006 came around; in the last six weeks of my tenure in the industry, my paychecks were 52.00 a week.  Yes folks believe it.  I have to place the blame on that all around  Congress, the auto makers and the oil tycoons both abroad and stateside.  Could they not see that every auto manufacturer was making large SUV's and larger four door trucks with Hemi engines that were sitting on their dealer's lot for way over a year.?

Myself and my “hubby” do have big dreams but we also see reality.  We are lying low, watching and patiently waiting for the bottom to hit and then grasp the opportunity.  The area in which we live is a tourist area and the year we moved here, it was busy and prosperous, however, the reality was hidden….condos were going up, but no one was buying, smaller businesses were closing early during the season and hotels were at half occupancy from the year before.  This past season (spring break, fall break, vacations, motorcycle festivals, etc…were well below the expected turnouts).  A multi million dollar condominium complex situated on the Gulf, is now up for sale.  It has a total of five occupants.

All we are doing is sitting back, trying to save what little we can, and at this point contemplating taking out money out of our checking accounts and just paying cash for everything seeing that the economic crunch may jeopardize the credit unions as well.  A new year will be upon us and business will be anything but usual.
In a business, “it takes three years of hard work to even start to see a small profit”.  It may take three times that amount to even begin to see a change.”  Good or bad, one cannot guess.  Patience my dear friends is going to be a virtue.
Please let me know if I made any sense.  I do apologize for my lack of knowledge and education in this matter, but this is heart felt and street wise. 

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Hi gina,  Thanks for painting a brilliant observation and complete experience of economics.  What you bring up here is exactly what Amber has brought up and is completely on the subject of economics with an accounting of how this has affected you and your family.  I believe that 911 was the wake up call for all mankind.  I read something funny in one of the political pods where it was described that the suppressive personality described “GOD” = Gold, Oil and Drugs.  
Also, I don’t see any lack of education in the area; as I am here to learn and share what I find right beside you.  Observation is the highest of any learning curve and you have personally experienced the environmental changes first hand.  Well done for seeing truth for what it was and is. I have seen our economy tumble during the Bush Administration.  Personally, I never believed a word that came from him.  He fits in the Oil category and all of what we are experiencing now until Obama takes office is still on his shoulders.

Your take on all of those places you describe in business spiraling downward and folding are perfect examples of what we the people have been confronting.  What you are observing, apparently, in our modern world, is an obscuring of actual economics to the ignoble end of taking everything away from everyone by the State. So their revolt takes the form of inaction and inefficiency.  

I have been running my own business the past 20 years and have experienced the exact Ups and Downs you describe. No matter which group I work with, I have found this to be true.  So on this wake up call since 911.  Please–we don’t need to invalidate ourselves – any of us.  Knock that off.  It doesn’t help economically.

What I want to change is getting all to see that things aren’t as dangerous as the news stresses, and I want to encourage others to continue with their own Spiritual & educational enhancement, as that alone spirals things up artistically and spiritually.  Yes we live on a crazy planet with a very small percentage that are working hard to make people feel fearful for their own monetary gains. Kathy

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Kathy,
Thank you for taking the time to read my babblings. :)  I too am a small businesswoman, however, I have not officially rolled the business out onto the red carpet.  I have been in the planning stages since 2002-03 with little help from any others except for Greg and my family.  It is a small business of crafts, floral products, christmas ornaments with a planning of expansion to diversify into the household and office cleaning.  It takes time and money which i have neither of at the present time.  LOL>
I was told that if I sought help from the SBA that they will give loans to women (because we are considered a minority) and regardless of past credit.  Hah!  What a bunch of BS.  I find it difficult to believe in the powers that be because with all their promises to help the “small and the weak”, they seem to add stipulations that one cannot achieve except the wealthy and even they are having hard times.  SBA was supposed to have lower interest rates (as advertised) however, they forget to mention, how low or should I say how hi…no wonder the small businesses struggle.
OK, enough said.
Many thanks Kathy

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Coming back to the topic of how the economy is affecting us personally, today.

What I see is, strangely, a sense of calm till I see that it is actually numbness. The other day, I met people who'd been laid off. The ones who stay, have survivor's guilt; the ones who leave, cope by thinking of the first small thing that might be affected: the doctor's appointment, the movie they were going to see…

Different ways of coping.

Those who lay people off, felt the emotions, but not the right to show them as they were being “the bad guys” here.

To keep the company secure, as well as allow everyone their personal space.

When the economy goes south, as it is now , in the U.S. for sure; it is about the fears that come up, and the ones that are suppressed. Co-workers who are forced to part; who once worked on a team and now have to be reminded about not sharing confidential information with ex-staff.

It is not only money but also emotions, decisions and personal  changes that take place, whether or not each of us is at present hit on the pocket book.

On the other hand, I also see the clarity that begins to dawn….

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Hi everyone, thanks for creating this lively discussion. I just read over it once very briefly, but I'm gonna give it a proper read through just to not get anything twisted. In the meantime, I feel this video is appropriate and beneficial to this discussion:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5232639329002339531

Enjoy : )

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Hi everyone, good discussions.  I want to throw my two cents in for what it's worth.
 

Here's how I look at economies

An economy, to my way of thinking, is nothing more than the way in which a society decides to share the land and its resources.  It's the land that provides everything we need.  By utilizing the land and its resources in a cooperative and sustainable manner, humans can not only survive but also thrive.  Sadly, our economy is not designed to allow cooperative, sustainable use of the land and its resources.  It doesn't provide every human being for generations the access to all they need from cradle to grave.

In a natural economy, people work cooperatively to utilize the resources of the land and share the fruits of their labor.  No one has to pay for anything, and their work, their labor, is all about producing the things they and their neighbors need instead of producing and marketing things that people don't need. 

In the current economy, which is entirely artificial, the land is not accessible to anyone unless they buy a piece of it from those who acquired it originally through deceit, and malice.  Those who came from the continents across the “pond” came with their “ownership society” mentality and took the land from those who had lived on it for millennia.  For the most part, the indigenous peoples of this continent had been living with a natural economy and self-governance, which served them well.

The current economy can't survive without rampant, mindless consumption, cutthroat competition, and destructive practices.  Here's why I think that's so:

• When people have to pay someone for the land and/or the house they live in, they can't just utilize that land to support their lives, they have to create an income from that land, or get a job to have an income to pay for that land and/or home.
• Anyone who wants to have access to food, shelter, clothing (the basic three of survival) has to participate in this economy in some form or another, i.e., we have to have some means of making money (a livelihood of our own or building assets by getting others to do the work for us).  Having a livelihood means we have to have something to sell as well as a market to sell to.   
• We sell our time, skills, energy, ideas, services, and products either to an employer, or directly to our market.  As a social worker, I sell my skills, time, energy to an agency that gets its money from the federal and state governments.  My clients aren't really the clients of the agency, though we pretend they are; congress is our employer and our market) and they decide whether or not we deserve the funds (everyone's tax money) or not.  If they decide not, then I don't have access to the economy, i.e., the job that generates my income to pay for food, shelter, clothing and other simple amenities. 
• If you are self-employed, you have to drum up business or you can't participate in the economy either.  You won't have access to the dollars needed to pay for your food, shelter, clothing, and other simple amenities. 
• There can never be enough jobs that pay enough money for everyone to live comfortably from cradle to grave.  There will always be some who are denied access to the economy and therefore poverty can never be eradicated.  Poverty isn't about lack of resources, there are plenty of houses, food, clothing, etc.for everyone even in this economy; it's not a matter of scarcity but a lack of access that creates poverty. 
• There will always be greed and violence as people compete with one another for land, resources, and the jobs that make it possible to access them.  For example, how many of us have given up a job to someone else who applied along with us because we felt they could use it more than we could.  That's just a small example of how this economy breeds competition.

There's a lot more to say about all this, but for me the question is not “how can we fix this economy?” but how can we disentangle ourselves from it and create something more natural and equitable? 

Amber, my daughter, and I have been talking about changing the way we live and experimenting to see what alternatives there are.  I've always felt there was a way to band together with others to do this – sort of the “build it and they will come” mentality – but I also know that the system has a stranglehold on us that would be hard to break unless we all understand what that stranglehold entails.  Plus I'm just a visionary - it will take a group of people who share the vision to make it real.  A natural economy and society requires self-governance, and cooperative efforts to make it happen. 

My desire now is just to start opting out of this economy little by little as much as I can.  I just hope that my children can be part of a larger shift in the future.  It seems as if the perfect storm has arrived to make it possible - climate changes, economic ruptures, global communication, a spiritual awakening - all driving us back to local economies of equity and sustainability.

So, there ya go.  Another way of looking at things, sort of radical, I know, but certainly part of the discussion.

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Judi,thank you for describing your vision, that you and our lovely Amber are trying to achieve. Just this is a huge leap forward; from feeling liberated from “the economy” which seems to have replaced “society” as that chimeric source of all ills –at least if the media is to be believed.

This is exactly the kind of discussion we need to continue having: what is REALLY happening, in each of our lives; and how are we fitting it into our entire life; and balancing it with other aspects of our day to day life.

Look forward to reading more:)

[And did I say out loud–WELCOME to our pod, which is now yours as well!!!]

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Hey Meenakshi,
Thank you soooo much for your warm welcome here in the thread – and for the one on my grapevine!
I love reading your comments and have an incredibly high regard for your insights, and ability to bring out the best in people.  Amber's always spoken of you so highly and I know you've helped her through some really rough times.  So thank you, thank you.
I will bounce out to my message page and invite you as a friend so I can keep up with the things you're doing.  Well, hmmmmm, not keep up so much because frankly you are so busy here at Gaia that there's no WAY someone could keep up, but I guess keep in touch is a better way to phrase it :)

Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

I'm so sick of reading the newspaper and seeing these headlines of “global recession possible” or “hard times all too evident.” This is absolutely stupid. It is such a sorry fact that if the media prints something enough times, say a thousand times a week, people buy in a believe it. They sit at home and accept it and talk about it and they have no idea what kind of economy we truly have, who is in charge of their money, and what they can do about it.

This is a time in our history where we as a brotherhood should be flourishing in all of our technology and wisdom and we watch the crappiest channels full of censored subliminal messages and buy into it.

I do not accept that point of view. I am much more optimistic. I believe that now is the time for the fittest to survive, for the smartest to go to the top, to take charge of their own lives and create the lives they dream of. So banks are controlled by the fed and you may not get a loan. There are ways to save money, start businesses, make profit and capital.
Think of them and do them!
Its time to take advantage of the freedoms we have left and make our own lives, not the lives the media, bankers, and leaders want us to have; subservient lives. I will not listen and create this self-fulfilling prophecy, it's rubbish and we don't need it. Get out there and work for yourself. Sell your talents. Live the life you want. Forget the mindless sheep.

If you are in a bad situation, change it. Everyday is a new opportunity. Quit your crying and make your own life.

Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Hi Michael,
I agree with you 100 percent.  I tried to say this but you say it so that everyone understands.  It's a beautiful thing to not watch the news for a week or read the paper and what you describe does happen.

Kudos for your writing.
Kathy

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

My husband and I are trying to live more simply.  No cell phones, one car.  I am hoping that once our debt is paid off we can start renting a place with a nice yard so I can garden for a good portion of our food.  Gosh, I can't believe the prices in the stores, especially for veggies!

We've taken a hit with the rising prices, but we are plugging along.  Right now we are kind of stuck…

I stay home with the kids.  If I went back to work without a degree I'm not going to be making much.  I will make enough basically to pay for the child care I would need, maybe bringing home an extra 30 or 40 dollars each week, which will probably mostly go into my gas tank.  So we keep talking about whether or not its really worth it? Not to mention my husbands hours change ALL THE TIME.

Amber, I am excited to hear about your journey learning about living in/creating a permaculture! 

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Hi Amber and Others

There is no way I can read all the posts and answer questions. I like to invite you to browse my blog on Deep conscious Capitalism
and read my paper (mostly written on fly online..so needs editing) to really get a handle on the problem. I desperately need a few reviews and comments.

Also please join my POD that has been silent to ask question. Once we understand the basic source of the problem then it is easier to develop a fair and sustainable solution from local level up to global. It all begins with perception of money and a series of misperception (wrong views that compounded the problem) because we forgotten how to share and reciprocate and create abundance and well being for all. I am under the weather a bit…so got to quit now.

Peace
mita

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Hi mita, I was thinking of you as I posted and lo ! you posted simultaneously, to the minute !!!

I have not compared your views to mine in specific detail (yet) but I encourage people to explore new viewpoints like yours and mine.

Blessings, OM

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

We have become consumerists more than merely consumers. We've relied on this religion of consumption. If a terrorist attacks, go shopping! Go to Disneyworld! That will solve all our problems. But we couldn't continue consuming the way we did, not if it would take the equivalent of five earths to sustain our way of life. It had to collapse.

Money is an illusion. Something only has value if we collectively agree that it does. It's one arbitrary system over another, whether we're trading beads and shells or euros and dollars. We create our own reality.

Now, times are tough where I'm at. But I still have a roof over my head, food in my belly, which is a lot more than a lot of people have. I can still take solace in a sunset, in the evening stars, in the sweet twirpings of the morning birds.

The paradigm is shifting. And I see that as a good thing. The question is, as the economic world collapses and trickles down on us (you too, Australia, you'll be feeling it soon), what kind of world can we create in its stead? If we can create a world of real economies and real communities–from the roots up, from the local to the global–won't we be better off? Why wait for Obama, we're doing it now, we're doing it here on this website, we do it anytime we breathe and enjoy nature and watch the sunset and realize that we are not the sum of our checkbooks (or the debts of them either).

I don't doubt that there's tough times ahead. I only hope that we can minimize the suffering and unrest. This is our moment, and I'm ready to roll up my sleeves and start getting things done.

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Judi ~ Thanks for taking time to post and give recognition.  I agree with you that we can all learn and are lucky to have Meenakshi at the helm of this site. She is unconditionally loving to Gaia.   I look forward to both her and Amber leading the way for this group.  Congratulations on your published book at Amazon  Between The Worlds by you…I know from filmmaking that you have been through tons of economic lessons.  Very well done!

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Yay! Good to be back on this thread…

I got off of work this evening from my retail, consumerism obsessed profession, took two hours worth of pay and exchanged it for a bucket of Kentucky Fried chicken with all the sides, burned up 1/6th of an hour's pay in gas going thru the drive up window and then home, fed three people on it and still had leftover's, pee'd in a 5 gallon bucket with a splash of Lysol to save flushes and the cost of water for the household, put a plug in the sink so water wouldn't run down the drain as I washed my face and brushed my teeth, and now I'm using 3 hours of pay to connect to the Internet this month and read the great things all of you have to say about our world! Aren't you all glad I'm being so intimate?! ~grin~ (the bucket has a lid and is very sanitary by the way!)

1. Where are you saving your money and cutting back or are you?

2. How are you consuming differently because of a feeling of pinch in the pocketbook or have you felt that pinch yet?


My favorite post coming on this evening was Michael's because I live with a roommate who constantly watches the news and reads the paper and gives me all sorts of gloom and doom about how nobody is shopping, profits are down 17% at our store, and 'the sky is falling, the sky is falling'… she then comes home from work (we're also co-workers) and complains about how swamped she was all day with customers at her counter! LOL Really? The store is full of people but they aren't buying anything? Hmmm…

Our profits are down for sure because our store is sending out 30% off everything in our store coupons and having Power Shopping Sales all day Friday and all day Saturday to coax people away from our competitors… it's not like the store isn't making money… it's just not making money hand over fist at the 200% mark up as is usual… Okay, I don't sell ski equipment or fine jewelry so the mark up might only be 75%, I'm possibly exaggerating but you get the idea!

Our store employees are all stressed out because our hours have been drastically cut and they are sure it's because nobody's buying anything and so we're all about to lose our jobs. They forget that we always have our hours cut before the holiday season because we hire on way to many employees the first of November to train them in anticipation of the crush of people after Thanksgiving. The company doesn't provide payroll hours for the increase in employees so everyone gets 15 hours a week until Black Friday. Then we're all up to our eyeballs in work! This happens every year but because the media is doing the gloom and doom chant, everyone thinks this is something new?! We are truly brainwashed by that idiot box! Thank you Michael for singing my tune…

I have faith in the American Public's addiction to consuming and see first hand, every day I go to work, that the 'economy as we know it' here in the U.S. is alive and moving along, albeit at a slower and more deliberate pace. We may chose to spend in different places such as Plato's Closet brought up by Keith, and the dollar menu's and movies, but we are spending… mostly on credit… because we are acting like we've just started a new diet. You know how starting a new diet goes… the minute you start it, you crave dough-nuts! You never craved dough-nuts before but now you do and you want a dozen of them, not just one!

So, the American Public has gone on a spending 'diet' because the media tells them they've gained a Recession. (don't look in the mirror… it isn't pretty!) They don't go into the stores during the week as much…but heaven help them when the weekend hits because by then, the urge to shop has gotten so out of hand that I could put bowling balls out on the aisle and people would buy them because they're on sale for only $17.99 with an original retail value of $45.00! I can see all of you lining up for a bowling ball because it's such a great deal! LOL I have them in 12 fabulous colors too! Oops… I sell makeup not bowling balls but you get the idea!

“If you are in a bad situation, change it.” Some people are truly in a bad situation and making a statement like the one Michael made is over simplifying IMO. The rest of us are only in a bad situation because we 'think' we are in a bad situation… anyone reading about my 5 gallon bucket with lid to save on the cost of water must think I'm in a 'bad situation' but my attitude is good and so is my situation! Would you really expire because you had to give up the $25 per month newspaper that feeds the doom and gloom, the $45 to $75 cable bill, the source of more doom and gloom, the $30 every two weeks to have your nails done, the $30 monthly latte habit, the eating out at maybe $100 per month depending on how often or where you dined?

(some of the above are still my personal spending choices I am committed to putting on credit because I can't really afford them but still think I'll expire if I don't have them, some I got rid of long ago and I surely didn't expire from the loss of the idiot box)

I'm giving my perspective on the health of the retail world in a semi discount department store. I'm not at a high end shop where traffic may or may not be at a stand still. I wanted to give you a feel for what is really happening in our shopping centers so the next time you hear the sky is falling, profits are down, and nobody is shopping you'll have some insight as to some of the reasons this may or may not be true.

I also want to add that our store is attached to a mall and the traffic in our mall is down drastically. Our particular mall has a store where you can buy real swords and armor if you happen to be a knight, a place where you can rent or own high end bridal apparel, many stores that cater to the 12 to 17 year old crowd who aren't employed yet so have sporadic cash flow, and other such places where you wondered, even in good economic times, how they stayed in business! People aren't flocking there now…

Our buffet style restaurant inside the mall has a line out the door and an established clientele, the movie theater is packing them in, and our indoor playground is bringing in young parents who are wanting to stay dry and get the kids out of the house during our cold and dreary Oregon winter weather. Those people walk by me everyday, (I stand on the aisle remember) thru our store, to get to those places… and I believe we're doing very well. Thought you might want to know!

Smiles!
amber

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Replying to thread to keep things in order; Amber, welcome back on your thread; with all those new insights! You really bring that fresh perspective from the inside. If we can keep sharing what's happening in our corner of the world, we'll get quicker and better insights than that of analysts on TV or even on Wall Street. On what's really impacting our life, and together, much of the world. I know it doesn't seem intellectual, but it's more intelligent to learn from life than from the words of doubtful experts.

Even big and medium sized businesses may get freed up if they don't have to keep playing to the analysts. Well, there is much more my husband's been telling me for years, so I won't try to explain what I don't personally know [!] .

John, your lines :”We have become consumerists more than merely consumers. We've relied on this religion of consumption.” Exactly!

But there's an emotional component there,too. Once in a while, when I am out shopping, I feel the contentment among the shoppers. It's like deep collective sighs–like eating chocolate is supposed to provide.  “Retail therapy” is not just a hype. It used to be window shopping.

On another note, once in a grocery store, I began to feel panicky feelings around me; soon realized that a hurricane warning had been declared, and people had switched to buying water and canned goods! Out this weekend, I certainly didn't feel anything this close to panic.

The one thing that I wouldn't mind seeing less off, is teens feeling that the way to enjoy life is to hang out in a mall. It's catching them too early. I'm conflicted about that, and wonder what others feel? Or if this is appropriate for this thread, Amber?

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Yes, less teenagers!  Especially the tween crowd that is starting to over take the malls and store after store that cater just to that crowd.  It seems we start kids out younger and younger, making them think they need to buy thing after thing to be in the cool crowd.  This plays into John's comment about being “consumerists”. 

The people who own Old Navy have this all figured out, because they also own Gap and Banana Republic(or at least they did, I believe they still do).  A store for each stage of life, really!  Old navy takes care of the teens with little money, Gap is for the working teen/young person and slightly more pricey and then Banana Republic where its a hundred for a tank top…

The younger they can get them hooked the better.  The dedication to being a consumerist is there, so they can build and build on what these people become willing to spend.

Meenakshi,  I love this, “But there's an emotional component there,too. Once in a while, when I am out shopping, I feel the contentment among the shoppers. It's like deep collective sighs-like eating chocolate is supposed to provide.  “Retail therapy” is not just a hype. It used to be window shopping. ”

That is all too true.  Its not good enough to look any more, one must have.

Maybe we could turn the tide on all the doom and gloom the media spouts off and take it as a good thing.  For once the junk they are letting off is actually helping people to “tighten their belts”.  Being a consumerist is a learned and practiced behavior, but so is being a minimalist.  The media is helping us relearn the minimalist behavior.  Making it more “mainstream”.  Too bad they had to go to such lengths to do so!

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Amber, Micheal, and et al,
This is such a fantastic discussion with so many views and opinions.
Amber, I applaud your 5 gallon bucket.  As you pointed out, it is true that during the Holiday season everyone cuts back to add other employees to their rosters to help with the ultimate Customer Service.  It's the old addage, if you let a customer wait too long, then he/she/them will not visit your store again.   I work for a large grocery chain store here in the southeast and they too have added more stores and employees faster than the economy will allow.  We are all on profit sharing plan (of course for those that qualify with the number of hours per say) and in the few short months that I have been in the profit sharing, my share has gone down.  I view it as opening up way too many too soon and a rush to acquire more profits.  What happens in these situations (I was a part of a similar scheme about 15 years ago) is that the public is overwhelmed with ads about a new store and how prices and customer service is beyond belief.  Again, because of a mass opening (we have four stores opening the same day in various locations), they are anticipating a large response when in reality (as it was in my store when it opened), the numbers were lower than anticipated, complaints were rampant because no one knew what to do and there were too many associates running around like chickens with their head cut off and the customer service shops that we all get came back with less than perfect scores.  A week after opening, all extra help goes back to their own stores and the new associates are left to ponder if they made a correct decision.  In a few short weeks after our store opened., we lost five employees, because their hours were cut.  Yes, because our department had a payroll to meet and absolutely no overtime was allowed after the first week. 
I realize that this is off on a tangent, but it culminates that we as individuals make the choices to where we want to work and once hired, hope to be there through all the difficult moments.  Some and most of them are the younger generation, believe everything should be handed to them on a silver spoon.  Lack of work ethic.
Take all of this and combine them with the views of all that are here and try to explain this to the employees that with the trouble in the economy, one has to sit on the outside, take it with a grain of salt because it will get better.  Believe it or not it does get better.
Our economy right now is in the downward spiral and once it hits the altitude where the spiraling will stop, there is no other place for it but to go up and that is where we come in.  How to do it?  We all just have to put our heads together and come up with a plan that is better than the economic professors can come up with.  Cease the opportunity, work it and there will be success.

Sorry that this got off on a tangent, tired, have to be work in a bit, but with Micheal's, Amber's OM's, et al's plans we can work to form a better economy.  We just need to take a stand.

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Thanks Amber (I am grinning), Meenakshi and Gina for more insight and help in this area of survival.

For weeks now, the newswires and TV stations had been declaiming about the forthcoming ‘Recession’ ‘Depression’.  For awhile it seemed that the news anchors, talk show hosts and other rumormongers would prevail, and that eventually enough group agreement would mechanically occur to make these grisly predictions come true. Perhaps even you. Well, as it turns out, it’s not all true.   It is all in attitude which we can individually change.

True, I have no physical evidence to refute the apparent bad indicators, I could perhaps point to a recent event that the media advised us to fear, namely Bail Out of Wall Street, which was, as we know, the end of business not run economically too well, or at least handled in a criminal manner rather than applying the art of economics and conditions that utilize statistics to improve failures.

It’s because (get ready for this) we can do something about it. And we usually do. People aren’t rocks. We do things. We make things better. And it is precisely when things do look bad that decent people like you and me look around and say “How do we fix this?” And then go ahead and do so. 

We grow organically here in Los Angeles and have been gardening for the past seven years and now showing the world the simple techniques via dvd and we recycle - turn off the lights when not in use and if we feel effect, we don’t watch the news much.  It’s not that dangerous in the environment.  One can spiral up and win once again… over and over.  I agree that if the environment seems dangerous and we look around our areas and find things that aren’t threatening,  if there really is some threat, we are prepared to confront it as “we the people” as I truly experienced in the recent election in that park in Chicago.

Re:Let's Discuss the ECONOMY: Here's something else . . .

… to chew on …

     Housing is bad enough, but wait — it'll get worse

I wasn't aware that 48% of all mortgages in Nevada were higher than the value of the home!  Wow!!!!


—-
[mod note:”Re:Let's Discuss the ECONOMY” title added for continuity-meenakshi 23 nov 2008]

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Thanks for the info. Gotta send permalink of this post to my Friend Susmita !!!!

I'm not sure I get the point of having a BANK involved, but I sure applaud going to “real” and “non-government” money !!!!!! Or their notes backed by “real money.”

Maybe the reason for “depositing” gold and silver would be so the bank could make community loans. I can see that. I can't see any other reason for depositing gold and silver anywhere…..

Blessings, OM Bastet

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Hope this doesn't throw things out of sequence too much since I'm responding to ~Kes's response to my comments!  Whoooo there's a lot of great stuff going on here!

~Kes, thanks for your warm response and for welcoming me to the pod.  And thanks too for mentioning my novel.  It WAS quite the endeavour.  I will have to delve more into your site to see what you've done with filmmaking!  Far more ambitious than writing to my way of thinking!  Anyway, thank you and back to the business of this thread - the economy and all its complexities.

I've been thinking about the many comments about money and its meaning and use.  I see it as simply a means of exchange and not really the core of the problems in our economy. 

When shells, gold, feathers, cows :) or dollars are used, they are – as someone already said (and I paraphrase 'cause I don't have a good memory) – just ways to exchange goods without having to carry cows around in our pocket (or heavy bars of gold!)  I can understand using a means of exchange even in a barter economy for that very reason.  But in the case of barter, money would only be a “placeholder” until such time that you could finish making your beautiful blankets that I'm bartering for with my oranges I brought with me to the New Moon fair.

However, in my little new agey neighborhood, there's no need for money.  We've all come together to do some barn raisin' and changed all our homes to incorporate various solar and even wind and biomass systems to provide heat, cooking, maybe even lights. 

And we all take turns cleaning out the compost toilets we installed in all our homes and spread the humanure gold around all our fruit and nut trees, and some of the other things we grow (except the carrots, potatoes and such kind of things that  grow in the ground or leafy green things). 

We share tools, and household items that we're all comfortable sharing.  We also do a lot of spinnin' and weavin' to make some simple clothing that most of us wear most of the time. 

I'm learning from Suzy to make herbal medicines, and learning from Joe how to make water catchement systems and purifying systems to keep water available to all of us in a variety of ways.

We don't pay for any of these things, they're just the fruits of our labor and everyone shares pretty equitably the labor and the fruits.

We have a few “businesses” to generate a little of that money stuff as long as this here money economy is around.  We needed to pay for the initial building of our community's infrastructure, and we have to pay taxes. 

But way back when we started building our little self-sustaining community, we all contributed to the buying off of our individual places here in town and now we don't owe anything.  Just have to keep it all from falling into disrepair, but that just means lots of parties after we've done our work.

Well, that's kind of what I want with all my heart to happen – hasn't yet, but that doesn't mean I can't dream :)

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

HI Judi ~  Thanks for sharing the dream.  I look around my area and see that all of it was once a dream and we are continuously creating our new reality.  What a terrific thread Amber has created to help with being the change.  There is nothing out of sequence that you have posted and the admin is doing a great job helping keep this topic moving forward.

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Wow! Kathy you dumped alot of information on both your blog today and what you wrote above! I read thru your blog and now know we have three things hampering our ability to study the economy…

1. The lack of the object I'm trying to study (the economy) isn't concrete so it's hard for us to get our minds around the concept because we can't touch, taste, smell, or pick up and shake 'the economy'

2. The subject has a steep learning curve if not taken in small steps. There are so many ways to look at the way an economy works, effects people, declines, or grows. If we try and understand all the concepts at once without getting the basics, it will be very frustrating and even impossible for us to understand.

3. A word not understood or wrongly understood. We're all at different levels of understanding of the economy and some parts we aren't even interested in so our eyes glaze over during a lecture about sub prime mortgages, annuities, or mutual funds…

I have a fourth reason for being hampered in my studies… lack of time! It's 1:15 in the morning!

I'll be back tomorrow night!
Smiles!
amber

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Wow, what a thread! Meaningful discussion. Have spent a few nights reading it, as there is so much content shared.

I agree that economy is a thought based concept, there is enough for all to share, and perhaps the fact that Wall Street, the Banking World and corporations are crying wolf may be a blessing in disguise.

What do I do? I have enough, I share happily and gratefully, and trust I will always have enough. Love sustainable ways of living and fair trade. I participate a little in most markets, but have yet to purchase anything at Wallstreet and Walmart (not feeling the need). I avoid going to the mall and rather go to a down town area instead. I buy based upon need, have my own style so am not getting too caught up in 'the latest style' and 'must haves'. My husband once told me I'd still look great in a potato sack, and I chose to believe that. Have used burlap bags for yard games for my kids' birthday parties, but found them too itchy to keep in my closet ;-)

In my husband's family I'm nicknamed “one size fits all”. His mother (nicknamed Imelda Marcos - due to her shoe collection) always has fine boots and shoes to pass on. Some of his seven sisters love to shop, have great taste and then find it doesn't always quite fit, and lo and behold, wow, of course it fits Nell!

Still I feel we have too much because my husband is a pack rat and cannot throw anything out. Every time he goes on a trip I give things away (a trunk full of stuff to the thrift shop), only to greet his happy return with, yes, more stuff (sigh). Learned to show appreciation for the things I do like, and to quietly plan for a good new home for the rest. Exhausting perhaps, but less so than getting into an argument about it. We are moving at the end of the school year, and this helps give my husband a new perspective. He now buys maybe a third of what he used to buy. Recently he came home with a 24 quart stock pot!
Yes, he loves to cook for an army and invite EVERYBODY to come and eat. I LOVE this about him. I told him if we ever have 20 quart in leftover stew or soup, I'll bring it to the nearest soupkitchen. I do fantasize about taking the kids out on a cold day and getting them involved in giving soup to the homeless.

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

On how to improve the economy, serving EVERYONE's best interest:

how about his nice idea ?

And maybe 8 years down the road, America will be evolved enough to welcome Wanda into the White House. Then we have covered two new demographics, and she is a genius.

Lastly, and very importantly, to have access for all in a healthy economy, consider your location (and BTW, this remarkable lady has taken on blogging recently for good reason - pls. read the rest of her blogs and see for yourself).

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Thanks for the links, Amazume. This is very telling:
”Are You Living in “ScareCity”That’s pronounced “scare city”.  Definitely it is new perspectives that get us into understanding something as pervasive and amorphous as the economy. It influences far more than the money in our purse.

I enjoyed reading the ways in which you describe your own ways of staying away from “scareCity.” It gives a clearer meaning to the oft-quoted phrase: “It's all in the mind”!

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Yay, Nell! I'm a new Carrotmobber! You know what I LOVED about the Carrotmob video even more then the fact that it WORKED?! I loved knowing there are some very smart, innovative, people out there actually DOING SOMETHING! AND I could join! I can't wait to see what they will think of next!

There ARE positive things we can do in our own little way to make a difference! The best thing way to help ourselves and others is to cheer on those who are trying something new instead of looking at all the things that could go wrong or rolling our eyes because we are SURE what is being done isn't going to work.

Something that is new and innovative is also scary and a bit of a nail biter when put into practice. If you're not one to come up with the ideas then be one of the ones to back someone who does! There is nothing better then a GREAT cheering section when marching into uncharted territory! In the video they worried about the turnout… I can relate. Have you ever hosted an event or maybe a family get together and had little or no turn out? The anxiety around attendance for a host or a leader is pretty intense!

So my new and potentially scary idea of community living the Amber and Mom way is about to launch TOMORROW! We need a cheering section, big time! ~grin~ We have a friend who is in the real estate business who will have the intuition to find us the right property to turn into a 'rent your room in a community to own' project! LOL Okay, I've got to come up with a better name for this concept or we'll be a dud on the Nightly News but I'm very excited to be taking this first step!

The nail biter part is… Will the bank loan us the money we need to purchase a large enough property? Will there be a perfect home and lot to house the 6 to 8 people we'd like to have living on the property? Will we be able to find a real estate attorney willing to draft a contract for the community to rent to own their piece of the property? Will we all be able to get along in harmony at least 90% of the time with the other 10% of discontent something we can resolve peaceably? Will we be able to fund the projects such as a wind powered generator, rain water catchment, retrofit old toilets to low or no water toilets, all to help us to get 'off the grid' in the middle of town?

Yikes! Sounds like a fun adventure, huh?!

Smiles!
amber

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Amber,
Good luck with the launch.  It is truly and exciting, yet anxiety filled on a new and innovative way.  Best of luck.

I am sure all of you have heard about the Wal Mart incident.  I posted views on this particular one on another group, however, some of it seems to fit in here.  As our economy still remains in a downward spiral, I cannot fathom the reasoning of the black friday massacre.
I have talked to so many people and in fact just the other day, my mother had told me that my cousin's husband had just been laid off from his job and now there are no bread winners in the family as his wife, mycousin, had made the decision to remain home with the kids.  Now both of them must search for jobs.  I have to ask a couple of questions:
1. How can people go out and stand in line at a store (take for instance Best Buy), all night long just to wait to get a bargain on an electronic item when they also complain that they have to conserve their own resources?  Does this make any sense. (i am writing this at 315 in the morning).
The economy will not be “saved” by this one day of fanatical shopping.  It takes money to shop, jobs to get the money, and industry to produce the jobs.
This all seems to be a snowball effect.
2. Has anyone here come up with any good ideas to get us back on our feet?  I have many however, as a group, we need to put our heads together and actually take the biggest chance of our lives to rebuild our lives and that of our nation.
We have to forget about the banks helping us out.  We need to do this ourselves and I am willing if there is anyone else out there who will actually commit to creating a better way.
Pooling our resources together without the help of certain government agencies, i.e. banks is the only way we can do this.  If I try to explain this here, this will turn out to be a very long post.  If anyone is interested or has any ideas let us work together.  This is the only group that I know of that is actually committed to salvaging our way of life and those of others.  Amber, you have succeeded and best wishes.  We need more like you to actually take that first frightening step.  If we don't, then we will never know if it will work.  God bless you.

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

YES!

Kathy, you have described step number…. 6 or 7? in the Rent To Own Your Room In A Community … (could use some help with this name! LOL)

The Birth Of A Food Forest! What an inspiring report! Even people with Black Thumbs can help by removing the cement post hole mushroom art to the herb garden! If you were reading Kathy's story and mumbling under your breath about your absence of green thumb capabilities remember, there are many things that need to be done when coming together to create something new… you may be the music maker/entertainer and the person who hands out the cups of Cool-aid, not the gardener extraordinaire!

Gina,

Thank you for the encouragement… it's Monday morning and I've yet to make the call to my realtor friend! I think I'll wait until after I eat my breakfast and get my anxiety all under control… the first step off the beaten path is always the most difficult for me!

The Wal Mart incident was a true manifestation of human insanity… Black Friday is pure mob mentality, the same phenomenon that causes people to be crushed at rock concerts and sporting events. From my perspective, as an employee facing the rush of humanity that comes thru those doors, it is terrifying and thrilling all at once. The excitement is contagious, the anticipation builds as the clock ticks toward 4am, everyone gets caught up in it. It's like a giant Easter egg hunt for adults! It's not really about the bargain or the item anymore… it's about the hunt.

The economy will not be 'saved' by Black Friday but Black Friday is an indicator for retailers on how the rest of the Holiday shopping season will go. It is something for the Talking Heads to blab on and on about, influencing the way the country feels about our economy, and it has a huge effect on the way we behave based on those numbers. We all heard the news stations telling us that today's consumer (us) is looking for a bargain, deep discounts, and convenience.

So… now we go looking for bargains, deep discounts, and convenience… if we had heard that consumers (us again) are going to the craft stores, purchasing items in bulk, and then going home and hand crafting their Christmas gifts this year… well, I'd be influenced to do the same! Wouldn't that mess up what retailers have been plotting since September… to make sure you've got the latest gizmo and widget to clutter your home and gather dust in a closet after a week or two? I have nothing against gizmo's and widgets as I have many of them myself! The idea is to make a conscious decision based on many different factors, not allowing our shopping to be influenced by marketing to get something you didn't even know existed until you turned on the idiot box or opened a magazine.

Kathy wrote a beautiful report on what people are doing right now, as a group, to get us back on our feet. I emphasis the word group because this is the key… as unemployment goes up, trying to hold onto a home, cell phones, cable television, a vehicle per person, etc is going to be difficult, if not impossible, for individuals. In groups, pooling resources will be much more cost effective, and using the strength of numbers will make huge tasks like planting a garden or feeding many mouths much more do-able.

Gina, feel free to share your ideas here because this is exactly what we need to continue this discussion on the economy… if we go off in our little corners and fail to share our ideas, people will feel hopeless and disconnected. Not everyone will be able to do a permaculture garden or live in a house with 10 people… these are simply ideas that may work for some. There are other great ideas out there! Do share!

Smiles!
amber

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Amber,
Yes, that first step certainly is a dilly!
To continue with the Wal Mart incident.  I was watching CNN last night while waiting in the ER's waiting room (Greg was putting ointment on my leg when it somehow spurted into my eye…ouchie)., anyway, they are saying that they have it all on tape and will prosecute those that trampled that unfortunate soul!  How in the world are they ever going to prosecute people that they can't get a name on.  Secondly, Walmart stated that they send their condolences to the family and that they pride themselves on safety for their shoppers…Yeah right!  They stated also that they provided security.  Well, where was the security and order that day?  Maybe they were sleeping in the back room or having a last cup of coffee before they headed to the doors.  My thought is that Walmart should pay for that man's funneral and set aside a college fund for his children, after all, it was their advertising that snowballed into that effect.
I also have and am still making crafted products for my family along with sending out some other items, and again this year it is small, yet to me and my family, it is not how much you give but what is in your heart!  I make Christmas ornaments for all my family with the year on it, therefore, it is there to be passed on to their children as well.
As for a business, I am not a green thumb or even a black thumb when it comes to gardening, however, I have some ideas.
A home grocery shopping/with delivery business.  I love to grocery shop and I know the majority of my friends do not like to.  A monthly charge is all that will be required
Furniture refurbishing is also another one.  Ever get an old piece of furniture from a garage sale…well why not.  You can get a contract with the local agencies to refurbish furniture so that it can be given to a family in need. 
Taking old wood crates that were used for displays in stores, and creating tables out of them is perfect.
Well, this is just a highlight, maybe someone could inject their thoughts as a group.

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

AMBER,

Millions of homeowners owe more on their mortgage than their house is worth.

Foreclosures are getting out of hand. House prices continue to fall.  But this can stop.

We need to focus AMBER; focus on this very real problem immediately.

I'm starting to have doubts about this Henry Paulson BAILOUT PLAN.

Instead of bailing out banks, we should have the government offer to buy any mortgage for 40 cents on the dollar; and refinance all good mortgages at 5%, at 30-year fixed financing.

Henry Paulson trying to “re-capitalize banks” is complete non-sense.

The Citibank bailout is not a good sign of confidence.  Re-capitalization of banks is only good for giving Citibank “breathing room”, that's all.

The way to solve the problem is from the bottom up. 

Otherwise, more people are going to lose their homes to foreclosure.

All the best AMBER,

Lou

Let's discuss the ECONOMY! The Great Crash of 2008

Well, I thought this was extremely interesting … from Economist Robert Reich's Blog … (Emphasis mine)

     …

Even more important, investors are starting to fathom the emptiness of American consumers' wallets. Retail sales last Friday and Saturday – the first days of the Christmas buying season – were disappointing. Had retailers not discounted to the point of taking losses, sales would have been abysmal. In other words, consumers have gone on strike.

Why have they gone on strike? Not because of the difficulty of getting credit. Most consumers can barely afford to pay the interest charges on the debt they're already carrying. Consumers have gone on strike because their earnings haven't kept up. The recovery that officially ended December, 2007 (the National Bureau of Economic Research now tells us) was the first on record in which median earnings declined, adjusted for inflation. Since then, many people have also lost their jobs or are working part time when they'd rather be working full time, or else know they're in danger of losing their jobs.

The speculative bubble still has some air in it; asset values will continue to drop before they hit bottom. That will take at least a year, possibly two. But don't expect asset values to bounce substantially back, even then. The only way to revive Wall Street is to revive Main Street, and the only way to accomplish this is to get America back on the course of rising median incomes.

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

I would agree.  The bailout plan as it is now will only save those at the very top.  It does nothing for 'Main Street'.

This is why the Democrats in Congress are already working on a second stimulous bill (but much, much larger this time) aimed specifically to create jobs, help states and cities, etc.  This is a step in the right direction.  I'm just concerned that late January may be too late.  A lot of damage can be done between then and now.

I will tell you why “the powers that be” are concentrating on the banks.  It has been stated that in the beginning of our last Great Depression, when Republicans were also in control, they sat idly by and allowed all the banks to go belly up.  Historians and economists contend this greatly prolonged the recovery. 

The thinking is that had the government back in the early 1930's bailed out the banks … the Great Depression might have been much shorter in duration.

This is why there is so much concern about the banks.

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Hey there Lou!

Thanks for the input! I completely agree with your statement,

“Instead of bailing out banks, we should have the government offer to buy any mortgage for 40 cents on the dollar; and refinance all good mortgages at 5%, at 30-year fixed financing.

Wouldn't it be nice if there were some way we could have enough influence at the grassroots level to push something like this idea thru? Does anyone know of such a vehicle? Keith, does the Obama site have a place for us to give our two cents? I heard about the Carrotmob.com thing and thought that was a great idea for a focused consumer base but what about a focused voter base? You brought this idea up Lou. Do you have any ideas on how to begin solving this problem is from the bottom up?

I'm also with Keith in that we cannot let everything at the top fall apart but feel we must use much caution when 'bailing out' the Big Business As Usual people when they were the ones making the bad decisions and should suffer the consequences of their actions… meaning that by default, we will suffer the consequences too.

Being smack dab in the middle of retail I have to strongly disagree with the statement “consumers have gone on strike.” This is simply not true. My landlady is in upside down in her mortgage and when I move into a community living situation she will absolutely lose her home if she doesn't get someone else to move in with her. And yet, she is still purchasing at the same levels she always has…

She is choosing not to heat her home but purchases all sorts of knick knack decorating stuff for the Holidays. Does she need any more decorating 'stuff'? Absolutely not. I had to help her get things down from the closet shelf because everything is stacked sky high in boxes. Purchasing something new to decorate with makes her feel good and she can always put on another sweatshirt to stay warm. We purchase items to make ourselves feel good and so a striking consumer would mean a consumer willing to go thru some pain of not shopping and so…

The stores are NOT empty… on Monday afternoon the traffic was so congested from all the people out shopping after work (and going to the post office by the way… December 1st was Black Monday for postal workers! The line was out the door!)  I had to take a back route and come back around to the main highway because you couldn't make a left hand turn into traffic! Today was very similar. What are people purchasing? Fragrances. Gift sets. Anything IPOD accessory related. Jewelry. Random stuff.

We are all making choices based on how we feel each day. We're feeling pretty bad thanks to our incomes being stagnate, the weather in most of the U.S. gray and cold, the television telling us every single day how bad the stock market is and how much money it's going to take to bail out Big Corporate with our money and our children's money, people close to us living on the edge or moving in with us as they go over the edge…

And don't think for a minute I'm not experiencing this up close and personal… a friend of mine has gone over the edge financially and is living with me in this finished garage single room of mine! And, remember… my landlady has chosen not to heat the house! I see this from both sides of this economic coin and I'm still choosing to be optimistic because my friend isn't living in the street, I do have a job that I appreciate in a way I didn't before, and a lady gave me a stamp so I didn't have to stand in that horrendous line in the post office on Monday afternoon!

Much Love,

AMBER

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Hi all,

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

I'm SOOOOOOO glad you brought this to our attention, Kathy! I'd seen a similar email or video before but had forgotten all about it! Isn't it amazing?!

And the quote, “In fact, it's always easier to be skeptical then to think in a positive way.” really says alot for me, especially in terms of this thread!

Copy/Paste into my status for the day!

Thank you and Hugz!

amber

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

1. A total commitment to PERMACULTURE IS THE ONLY way forward to sustainable production of food, to fill the mouths of ALL souls on earth,  IF we are to avoid the road to disaster. 

That  also  applies to the Amish Community use of “genetic modification” of food plant seed stock,  as an exemplar demonstrator  to all those who are following their lead.

The biosphere IS, as James Lovelock first wrote in GAIA, just ONE independent entity of interdependence and our species are the ones who are continually throwing the spanner into the works.

The spanners must be removed, and if we have a headache because of banging our heads against the brick wall we must stop taking the tablets AND banging our heads against the wall.

… falling leaves return to their roots !

2. Service to others IS ALL

3. Forest Gump's mother had it right !

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

Lou, Amber, Kathy, et al:
This discussion is quite intense.  Amber, I am also on the retail spectrum.  I work for a very popular grocery store chain here in the southeast.  Our stock is private, held by the employees, however, I see it falling everyday. Why?  Because where our business was last year, is non existent this year.  They are still shopping, but not at the rate that was last  year.  Most of our customers are either laid off or completely out of work.  Our “waste” at the end of the day is horrible. Our presales from Thanksgiving was lower than it was last year and that is with all of our stores in our district including one of our “million dollar” stores.  We are all feeling the pitch.  Yet I keep hearing complaints from our newcomers that they can't wait until they can get a better job.  I say to them Good luck!  Discouraging for them, yet I try to give them a positive outlook.  Our company does take care of the “family”.
Lou, how true your words are!  Why should we bail out the banks?  Where were the banks when so many of us lost our homes to foreclosure or neared foreclosure?  Were they there with a compassionate word or plan?  No they were not.  $$$$$'s is all they were worried about.  I am not a highly educated person, nor am I up there in intelligence as so many of you are.  I do keep up with the financial news and the current events and I hope that something will be done that will save our children's future and that of our grandchildrens.

I do have a somewhat start to a solution if anyone is game?  It is a risky one but one that may be worth a shot.  Late January may be a little late, however, this plan can only take place at that time.  If anyone here has a connection to Washington, we need to get together either by phone or email as a group and set up an audience with President Obama!  We need to form an organization, get it legalized, set up a plan of action and personally submit it to him!  This will be the only way we can find out if he truly is a man of his word.  Never mind sending letters to representatives or councilman, why not start at the top as the auto industry and the banks did!  Anyone with me on this?  Let me know.  Email me at ginadenny59@yahoo.com.
Love,

Re: Let's discuss the ECONOMY! How are you feeling, coping, chang

While not minimizing the seriousness of the current economic situation and while admitting that our business has tightened up our credit policy and continues to work actively to bring in open account payments.  While we do consider the future and try not to go overboard with our spending this year for Christmas and other things, it is my belief and it is only that, that once the new president comes in, so will an increase in optimism.  I think as Franklin Roosevelt said “we have nothing to fear but fear itself”, yet if we let our fears get the best of us, we will project those fears onto our future.

I try to look at the whole situation as needed to restore balance and some of the recent efforts of our politicians disappoint me.  I read a great article here -

http://www.newsweek.com/id/170340?tid=relatedcl

for those who might be interested.

It was in the Dec 1st issue of Newsweek and is titled “Don't Get Depressed, It's Not 1929” by Daniel Gross.  It is well worth putting into perspective because the majority of us did not live through that 1930s event called the Great Depression that history tells us was pretty hard on those who did.

And this is not to deny, that there are many who are currently paying the price and many that should be and are getting away with robbery.

Deb