Gaia Community

Re: .seeking input. thank you samme for giving a "push" to write!

Bill said Aug 30, 2008, 6:41 PM:

>>> created a living human out of clay (a golem?!). i don`t buy that..but maybe I`m wrong…….. does anybody know what Rabbi Loew and the Kabbalah are really capable of?

Not creating golems, thats for sure.

Not that you have any reason to believe me, but, if you study it for yourself, you'll find out.

—

Your 'baphomet' is my pan, I'd say. What led you to believe it was a baphomet vision? Thats an odd, loaded, and very specific 'name'.

I love visionary experiences - and one of the things that qabalah training does is provide access to visionary experiences. Sounds like you had a nice one.

—

>>>now, i am really very interested to know more about the Kabbalah tree ….. who designed it? it must have been some genius like Mendeleyev who gave us the periodic table of elements…someone who saw or felt “the big picture”….

Now, that is a really intelligent and perceptive question and supposition. I also am fascinated by the question of how diagramatic concepts like the tree were invented.

And it's a really ingenious diagram. In many ways one of the most fascinating 'spiritual' maps that humans have ever invented. Beautifuly complex and interwoven.

But, betcha a hunert bucks you get no good answers here. Well, mostly.

Show Replies

Re: .seeking input. thank you samme for giving a "push" to write!

capreycorn said Aug 31, 2008, 5:16 AM:

thanks for the feedback,

i am convinced that it must have been baphomet…..the images i`ve seen of the shepherd god pan are pretty close but the horns of pan (smaller and like a ram) just aren`t the same….. i think baphomet is not the same as pan (that`s what i also read mostly….although a few infos i read sugest that they`re the same )…the descriptions of the sensations one would experience when connecting with baphomet through (unfortunately) black-magick of some sorts are just “bingo!”..they also mention someting about being in 3 bodies which would again be a match…
…i did not try to use magick re.enact the experience..these methods are just too “far out
”..
the sentence “i was there when free thinkers were secluded” (tribute to baphomet) describes pretty well the state i was in when it happened.

what i wonder about most… is wether the experience indicates that the entity is with me as “guide” or somewhat connected or if he was just helping me one time to have a OBE.

what do would you suggest?

cheers = :-)

Re: .seeking input. thank you samme for giving a "push" to write!

Bill said Aug 31, 2008, 2:22 PM:

Well, the baphomet imagery and history have nothing to do with either kabbalah or qabalah, so this may not be the best place to discuss it. That's something to be determined in the near future.

Inducing visionary states has a lot to do with both streams of qabalah, so, we can talk about baphomet in the context of visionary states, tho.

You say you are convinced it was baphomet - but, as a person who has been entering and exploring visionary states since I was a young teenager - and thats a lot of years now - I KNOW that visionary logic doesn't work with such absulute certainty that makes it possible for you to know for certain that you had an absolute baphomet vision.

Visionary logic is fluid, associative, and dreamlike. Visionary “beings” often “lie”. (for lack of a better word - it's not really a lie - visionary logic doesn't use words and numbers and images the way the verbal mind or the rest of the brain does.)

There's no easy way for you to figure out wether or not I'm right in sayingthese things to you unless you study the visionary states. I don't expect you to take my word for it. But consider that I might be telling you something that should be considered - that visionary states are MUCH more complex than they appear.

—

Now, baphomet is a fascinating image from recent history - only a few hundred years old, and appearing 'out of the blue', as it were. The name has no convincing history before it was used to condem the templars to death and prison, and as a justification for confiscating their wealth and power.

However, the name and image have entered popular culture in a pretty potent way, as a metaphor for the devil, commonly portrayed in hundreds of movies and shows and in artwork and other pop culture forms. The classic modern image comes from a famous illustration in Eliphas Levi's “Transcendental Magic” - the goat with a torch between it's horns, marked with the upside down pentagram. This image has been used directly and as a reference for many many other images.

In the actual templar trials, as I recall, baphomet was just described as a “head' that was worsjipped and kissed - the goat imagery was added later, because the image of the goat from the witch trials and burnings was well established - the two images kind of flowed together, because the same propaganda machine used to condemn witches and confiscate their property was used to destroy the templars.

Not that I'm the world's best expert on the templar thing. I see the templars as mostly interesting for their cultural effect - there's no good evidence of real templar mysticism, only their power as a secret society, and I'm mostly interested in mysticism and psycholgies, not just secret politiocal groups.

Have you learned the most common explaination for the origin of the name?

—

Now, as for your experience itself - it's a classic type of visionary state. The brains of certain people can produce these things without training, and that sounds like what happened to you.

Now, I started training myslef when I was 11 years old, so I can never know if my brain produces these things naturally, or because of the training, but they happen to me all the time as well - thousands of times over the years.

In any case, it happened to you, and as you can tell, it's very powerful and can effect the rest of one's life with various kinds of interests and convictions.

Now, we can go into more complex details of how the visionary state works, and how yours worked, but this is already long - so, later.

Re: .seeking input. thank you samme for giving a "push" to write!

capreycorn said Sep 1, 2008, 3:42 AM:

hi,

let´s not talk about baphomet anymore then….I´ll just try to answer some of your points and state my point of view as it is at present….and then i really want to know more about the visionary states…the streams of kabbalah and the kabbalah tree. :-)

i asked a occultism insider  who has seen most of the cults (about20) and climbed within their ranks about the baph-experience. he was brief and no nonsense and said i must find out myself about him. he said he knew about the baphomet problematic and gave further clues on where to search. (got a lot to read)

where the name baphomet really came from is still as unclear to me as the true history of the templars.

about baphomet, templars and the OBE . simple logic tells me this so far:
-baphomet was worshipped because he promoted higher spiritual levels/vibrations.
-enemies of spiritual growth had to destroy everything about him and his “reputation”
-a spirit deceives by trying to take shape of something we already know/believe/worship.
-the baph-obe was forceful (intense) not regular vision or regular OBE for my understanding.  it was a trinity (2 astral 1 physical ) of bodies all fully awake and clear.

i am just guessing that the qabalah tree is a kind of flowchart and the interconnected points could be visionary states and their different intensities, different dimensions, frequency states, astral realms of some kind , attention and energy spots of the aura, a residence map of gods and spirits…or all of it and more?

..the qabalah tree is shown mostly as a 2-d image of something that maybe should be 3-d/ holographic? with at least 4 sides to it or more? is that far fetched ?..

if the experience could be brought in connection with one of the tree`s points…i wonder which point would it then qualify for?
and would the kabbalah be able to show where to go from there?

i understand that  the term “visionary states” encompasses anything from a gut feeling to levitation. but that big differences exist between those states

yeah, dream like visions are difficult to make sense of. i think logic is the key in this world and all other realms…visionary logic is something i need to learn more about  …

it is so true there are “lies”in visions and making interpretations of visions more complicated and too intellectual .feels to me like lying already..i strongly believe that truth is simple and should be kept that way.
i react to short-notice simple clues, feelings and images. extensive dreamlike visions are rare and so unreliable, it`s hard to tell which ones will be a deja vu and which not.

…now i got to take a break…did i miss out on something`?

cheers. :-)

Re: .seeking input. thank you samme for giving a "push" to write!

Bill said Sep 1, 2008, 3:16 PM:

Well - streams of qabalah - there are many many MANY substreams, but you basically have three major streams.

Kabbalah with a K.
Qabalah with a Q.
and
Cabala with a C.

Kabbalah is more jewish than qabalah, which is more jewish than cabala - to grossly oversimplify.

Or, we can talk about the jewish kabbalah, the magical/hermetic qabalah, and the christian cabala.

Most people in these modern days are thinking about the jewish religious kabbalah, as made pop by madonna and britney, and as taught by the various competing and non-competeing kabbalah centers.

I was trained in magical qabalah, which makes me the instant outsider and heretic here.

Cabala is becoming less and less common, as the attraction between judaism and christianity that happened in the time of the 15th thru 19th centuries fades, and the two religions become more competitive. However, it still is around, and we could think of it as a kind of mirror image or variation on kabbalah, with similar goals and practices. Angelology is a kind of inheritor of cabala.

Kabbalah and qabalah have subdiscplines, like gematria and, oh, what is that - notariqon? And two others - four major subdisciplines, it's usually said. I personally have little interest in those subdisciplines, but some people just love them.

Somebody else here can talk about the subdisciplines, they are not my specialty. Way too textual for me.

—

>>> if the experience could be brought in connection with one of the tree`s points…i wonder which point would it then qualify for?
>>> and would the kabbalah be able to show where to go from there?

In theory yes, that would be a common use for the tree and qabalah theory.

Kabbalah would castigate you for even mentioning baphomet. Especially if they knew the most common theory for the origin of the baphomet name, ha hahahah.

Re: .seeking input. thank you samme for giving a "push" to write!

Bill said Sep 1, 2008, 3:26 PM:

>>> i am just guessing that the qabalah tree is a kind of flowchart and the interconnected points could be visionary states and their different intensities, different dimensions, frequency states, astral realms of some kind , attention and energy spots of the aura, a residence map of gods and spirits…or all of it and more?

Yes, a flowchart. I think of it as a flowchart of the process by which 'nothing' becomes 'reality'.

Or, said another way, the process by which 'consciousness' draws the world we experience.

Or, said another way, the process by which the brain generates the bubble reality we occupy at any given moment.

Of course, the ancients (and not so ancients - qabalah, especially the otz chium, the tree, arguably isn't THAT old) thought of it as the process thru which god creates the world.

>>> ..the qabalah tree is shown mostly as a 2-d image of something that maybe should be 3-d/ holographic? with at least 4 sides to it or more? is that far fetched ?..

Lots of people talk about a 3d tree. I'm not sure thats not just an aesthetic conceit. I think of the tree as an information flow - not an energy flow - and information is not dimensional, altho the mediums thru which it flows can be.

But, I like to turn the tree on it's side, as a thought experiment about heirarchy, so I'm just a heretic no matter what.

Re: .seeking input. thank you samme for giving a "push" to write!

capreycorn said Sep 2, 2008, 8:25 AM:

hi,

hat is really challenging…..3 different ways of “qabalah”

so cool that you`re into qabalah-magic.

that is a awesome concept.that tree. describing the process through which nothing becomes reality so shifting the main focus of attention from one point of the tree to another could lead to altered states…..could change the human energy field and maybe even the physical structure? i only have one book with the kabbalah tree…it is from choa kok sui “universal kabbalistic meditation on the lord`s prayer” ..it depicts the tree`s points as chakra vortexes…but doesn`t go much further than that…

thinking that the shapes in our universe , for example the spirals, are found in the micro cosmos, the macro cosmos as well as the “greater? cosmos”…..leads to thinking that the same counts for the kabbalah tree…(streams).

i don`t know if i got it right…energy might not be dimensional but it transcends(?) dimensions right? it has no real boundaries but it could have peak power points and directions of flow and form dimensional bridges/doors and a lot more..so the tree might be a key therefore in finding the path from micro to macro to greater cosmos and back in terms of streams?!.superstrings of some sorts?? the key to shift to other realities /dimensions without having to disintegrate?
ahhh…(do you get what i`m trying to say? because i`m lacking the words…)

ok..i am thinking of the qabalah-tree-shaped vogel-crystal . which must have the qabalah shape to be stable in itself. (to be a energy constant? …nothing getting lost/escaping and nothin intruding/disturbing..a failsafe energy structure applicable in any dimension?). i just can`t resist thinking about the tree in 3d(like a crystal) and placing the david star with it`s hebrew inscriptions horizontally right under the standing 6-sided tree/crystal and on top of it and then see what can be made of it. ( it would be cool to know what is written on those 6-armed stars and find out if they could give any further clues in terms of energy (points/flow/pathways/short cutts ) of course it`s tempting to imagine the david-star in 3d as well and maybe put it in the middle of the 3-d tree.( i haven`t got a clue…just playing “lego” in my mind) :-)

what kind of impact has the magic kabbalah had on your life so far?

cheers.

rey

Re: .seeking input. thank you samme for giving a "push" to write!

Bill said Sep 2, 2008, 4:40 PM:

>>> so cool that you`re into qabalah-magic

well, all three streams practice “magic”. That's one of the characteristics of Q/K/C-ab(b)ala(h) - it's an 'operative' system. It claims to be able to 'do' things.

What I trained in is magical/hermetic qabalah - which means the system that was worked on by the european hermetic tradition and it's inheritors, the late 18th and 20th century magicians.

Why the hermetics and magicians took up qabalah during a period when the jews had pretty much suppressed it is an interesting story. As is the story of how kabbalah came back into vogue. As is the story of why the different streams use different letters.

By 'stream' I mean cultural streams - that is, traditions, or patterns of cultural usage kept alive by various people or groups.

—

>>> i don`t know if i got it right…energy might not be dimensional but it transcends(?) dimensions right?

Not energy, information. The tree is a flowchart of information and transformations and operations of information.

It's actually very common to see these two different things treated as if they were the same - and viscerally they often seem the same. This is a complex topic so I'm just going to touch lightly on it.

Like all mysticisms, qabalah has it's own systems of “energy training”. That is, exercises that teach the mystic how to feel “energy” and alter consciousness and experience with that feeling of energy.

This gets a little complicated. “Energy” is a kind of information, but information is not necessarily energy. However, that's kind of advanced, and only really matters when you've gotten good enough at the energy exercises that they start getting dangerous.

In any case, the idea that was critical for me, was thinking of the tree as a flowchart of information. Keep in mind, I think of this as a very advanced idea, and when I started, I thought of the tree as a flow of energy too.

—

>>> what kind of impact has the magic kabbalah had on your life so far?

The magical/hermetic qabalah.

Other people here are into kabbalah - I practice qabalah.

Well, I think of it as 'effects', not impact.

The effects I value the most might seem odd. They are, a significant improvement in memory, dramatic increases in visual creativity and multitasking and what we might call 'multidimensional' thought capacity. In effect, a radical transformation in the organizational structure of my mind.

That alone is so striking and worthwhile that it makes the effort I've put into qabalah training worth every hour a thousand times over.

It's radical enough that I've compared it to learning how to read and write. If you look at two people from the outside, one literate, the other not, it's hard to see a difference. But the richness of the inner life of the literate person makes that person almost a different type of human being, compared to the illiterate.

Qabalah training is like that.

Then there's all the other stuff - a new model of mind and 'self', changes in the orientation of the person in time and space, improved self-knowledge, yada yada yada.

Re: .seeking input. thank you samme for giving a "push" to write!

capreycorn said Sep 5, 2008, 4:47 AM:

hi bill,

thanks a lot for the “input”
i`m still contemplating ………..

thinking about information not being at least a subtle energy form, is hhmm….(does that have to do with non-locality?)
does that mean the tree points don`t have to be accessed through the bottom spot you could go smack in the middle and then do “crosscountry” instead of using the energy/info highway?. have you ever tried that? (or is this the thing that makes advanced energy-kabbalah so dangerous?.to overshoot the runway?…how dangerous can it get?)

it is strange to see all those jews walking around in their black wardrobe now and thinking….hey, he might practice kabbalah magic…..or is that just for hardcore rabbis?.

i understand exactly what you mean by becoming metaphysically more advanced and the mind-processes going “michael phelps”….
seems that kabbalah training is also a key to accessing all the unused parts/potentials of the brain….i could really use that…
is that “boost” in your opinion also of great benefit towards experiencing more extensive OBE`s as well?

have a sensational weekend. :-)
cheers
rey

Re: .seeking input. thank you samme for giving a "push" to write!

capreycorn said Sep 6, 2008, 1:15 PM:

hi bill,

kabbalah is a very complicated subject..
i need to think a little more about it, but from a distance….
i would like to shift to some other questions, that just came into my mind….
the jews wear big hats or have a little cap on their head…
could that be a protective measure to protect the “body energy fountain?”
now this may seem far out , but these are questions i ask myself..:

“why does nothing stick to teflon but teflon sticks to the pan?..just kidding. :-)”

a martial arts teacher taught me that lying “naked” in the morning sun is only energizing when lying on the stomach and draining energy when we face the sun..could this have to do with the body`s energy-field-flow-direction or direction of attention?
..i never had a obe while exposed to sunlight..maybe others had..have you?

..it is said that nonphysical entities mostly roam in the dark (rarely in plain sunlight) - this doesn`t have to mean that they`re dark-sided/evil entities…could this mean, that the spirit/astral body is vulnerable to sunlight radiation (thinking in terms of physics..the astral body could be made of elements/particles (maybe already known to physics) that are vulnerable to the sun`s powerful discharge (radiation) of these same elements/particles besides photons and the sorts….and the sun is as a matter of fact a extreme force probably not only capable of harming the physical body (if it is overexposed and not protected/shielded) but could also be dangerous/lethal to the astral body)

..what do you think.?
cheers
rey

Re: .seeking input. thank you samme for giving a "push" to write!

Bill said Sep 9, 2008, 4:48 PM:

I don't have all that much of an opinion on those things.

I agree that a person can use objects and clothing as cues to help with “energy” training and things like orientation and “energy” hygiene - which can be very important at certain stages in self-development, and also a lot of fun as well. (referring to jews and their secialized clothing choices and talismanics)

I don't really believe in “nonphysical entities”, despite having met many hundreds of them and having drawn out and complex visionary interactions and conversations with such things.

Since I'm so familiar with them, I know too much about them to still continue to think of them as actually existent seperate entities.

Instead, I have what I call the “entitying theory” which is about the human mind, and it's tendency to model things as entities.

But, if I hadn't gone thru the process of conversing and interacting with so many entities, I'd still probably believe that entities had an objective seperate existence, in some form or another.

One of the things qabalah is good for is stimulating entitying experiences. A basic qabalah training exercise, for example, involves creating “memory garden” scenarios in the imagination that often revolve around conversations with entities like angels.

Fun exercises.

Re: .seeking input. thank you samme for giving a "push" to write!

capreycorn said Sep 11, 2008, 6:55 AM:

hi,

maybe you`re refering to nonphysical entity in kabbalah terms..or your perception of those nonphysicals…looks like you have “the matrix vision”… what i call non physical entity might be a other dimensional being as well ..some seem blunt enough to manifest themselves in plain sight .. .but as long as it`s noisy and can`t be locked in a closet..it`s a nonphysical entity in this dimension..to me.(maybe it`s just alien life forms fooling us)

of course all that we see is subject to what our brain makes of the visual signals..example when the south american indians first saw white people (thought they were gods) they didn`t see the spanish ships simply because they weren`t used to that sight ..only their medicine man used to seeing unusual things saw the big ships.

so in a nutshell : through learning the kabbalah you`ve enhanced your “matrix vision” which is really awesome..(by “matrix” i mean all is just energy be it physical or nonphysical)
“memory garden” sounds similar like what castaned describes in his book “the art of dreaming”

cheers :-)